WBAUnofficial

(11-22-2021, 12:59 PM)baggiebuckster Wrote: [ -> ]The vaccine has always carried a risk v reward ratio. That is why the JVCI looked at data for teenagers and opted for only one dose initially. For older people and more vulnerable then the benefit of taking the vaccine is obvious. For younger people on a personal level it is far from obvious. Yes - we can talk about doing the right thing for society etc but in essence you are asking the younger generation to take a vaccine with known risks to their demographic for the benefit of others who have already been triple jabbed.

The fact is that covid will be here forever and the more that get vaccinated then the less it has chance to move around and mutate. Because it will be around forever then those that don't need it now as you point out, will eventually move into the category that need the jab. Only by then it will have got stronger and mutated further if we don't take steps to get as many people jabbed now as possible. And if we need to carry on that jab process then so be it.

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(11-22-2021, 01:11 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote: [ -> ]Here's some examples of what I'm talking about that people are seeing in other countries:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-ne...ates-video

"If you're anti mandate, you're anti vax". LOL, so you can even have the covid jab and be anti vax now. Can't people see how out of control some of the western governments are? This is insane! Literally insane!  You can't even be against mandation/coercion or you're anti vax, according to a politician (or a fucking lunatic, as I'd call him). Many people keeping an eye on what's going on around the world are rightly concerned!

In Victoria, they're trying to push through permanent pandemic powers? Why permanent? Alarm bells? Nah, all juts a conspiracy theory...... honest...... like mandations..... like vaccine certificates.... like segregation.....

If people aren't alarmed at the direction of travel here, I'm truly perplexed.

You've gone for the media alarmist focus on extremes to get clicks and have applied it generally. Use common sense, instead of looking at individual statements by, dare I say it, vote seeking politicians who as you know lie.

(11-22-2021, 01:11 PM)baggy1 Wrote: [ -> ]You want someone to tell you the end game? I've heard it all now - how does anyone know what will happen with a completely new virus. The 'end game' is to get hospitalisations to manageable levels, like they currently are in the UK and keep them there. You are confusing getting out of this with getting rid of covid entirely. We will never get rid of covid, we just have to get to manageable levels, if we don't do that then guess what those that don't need the vaccine now will eventually reach a point where they do. And when they do there is a very good chance that they will wish they did more because you have conveniently forgotten that in a year where we had strict measures in place the deaths in this country went up 25%, we need to have the jabs to replace the need for lockdowns, we don't get to wave them both away.

And Covid has a serious link to many underlying factors and I would be pushing for many programs to reduce obesity, smoking, drinking etc but the big difference is numbers, 25% increase in deaths in 12 months simply down to covid in a very restricted environment, imagine doing nothing in that period. We're back to normal, that should show you the success of the vaccine and people should embrace that normal by getting vaccinated to strengthen the freedom we have, not risking it because we 'don't know enough about the vaccine'. Educate, reassure and enjoy the freedoms.

Then they should be honest about them not knowing the end game.

I'm not confusing it with getting rid of covid entirely. Of course it'll always be with us.

There has been no attempt to reduce obesity despite its link. No attempt at all! That does not make sense.

Here you go again... "People should......" Some don't want to!! You just can't accept it can you. You're convinced everyone can be convinced to have it. They can't!! And less will have the booster than the first two! People should do this, should do that, for the last time, some don't want to!!

Many do not see being coerced/forced into it as " enjoying freedom". You can't see that either! Many, including me, do not believe freedom should be bought by obeying the government when it comes to a medical decision!

There is no evidence of passports working, but Scotland/Wales plough on along with most of Europe, and yet you still don't see an issue? That's not "freedom" to many people. I'll say it again, medical autonomy and informed consent is a huge issue for many people.

You are so convinced that they are wrong to reject the vaccine, that you (and many others) will gladly agree to segregation in society. This has been set up to happen, and it'll come in the next few months firstly in the form of vax passpoirts (which I repeat have no evidence of reducing the spread - the governments own leaked report suggests they may INCREASE the spread!), and then further if necessary (see Austria). First divide into two simple camps, vax and anti vax, and then slowly but steadily create a group (known as anti vax, even though 92% of them aren't against vaccines in general) who are blamed for things continuing, in order to justify segregation. Fucking gross.

So, when cases go up, and hospitalisations go up (they will, virus's do virus things), how far are you prepared to go Baggy1? Locking down unvaccinated people only? Sacking from more jobs? Fines? Imprisonment? What's your limit that you think is acceptable? How far would you go?

Edit: I said you will gladly see segregation in society. I hope I'm wrong there, I really do. But many will, they're being primed to.

When cases go up means nothing, cases are up and because of the vaccine people are being kept out of hospital, if people can't tie those two stats together then god help them after two years with this. If hospitalisations go up to levels that we have had before we will simply need to go back into lockdown, if we allow hospitals to get overwhelmed then every person that needs that service suffers.

You go to extremes by ignoring common sense, people lose their jobs caring for the vulnerable because they have more chance of giving the people they care for a disease that will kill them than vaccinated people. People would get locked up for breaching any lockdown because they erm breached the lockdown, not because they are unvaccinated. If we face another lockdown then everyone is in that boat, not just the unvaccinated.

The stats show that we have kept the hospital levels stable for 4 months now, encourage the take up of jabs over this winter period and we should be out of the worst of it, relax now and we will lose the freedoms that we have worked hard to get.

(11-22-2021, 01:14 PM)baggy1 Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-22-2021, 12:59 PM)baggiebuckster Wrote: [ -> ]The vaccine has always carried a risk v reward ratio. That is why the JVCI looked at data for teenagers and opted for only one dose initially. For older people and more vulnerable then the benefit of taking the vaccine is obvious. For younger people on a personal level it is far from obvious. Yes - we can talk about doing the right thing for society etc but in essence you are asking the younger generation to take a vaccine with known risks to their demographic for the benefit of others who have already been triple jabbed.

The fact is that covid will be here forever and the more that get vaccinated then the less it has chance to move around and mutate. Because it will be around forever then those that don't need it now as you point out, will eventually move into the category that need the jab. Only by then it will have got stronger and mutated further if we don't take steps to get as many people jabbed now as possible. And if we need to carry on that jab process then so be it.

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(11-22-2021, 01:11 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote: [ -> ]Here's some examples of what I'm talking about that people are seeing in other countries:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-ne...ates-video

"If you're anti mandate, you're anti vax". LOL, so you can even have the covid jab and be anti vax now. Can't people see how out of control some of the western governments are? This is insane! Literally insane!  You can't even be against mandation/coercion or you're anti vax, according to a politician (or a fucking lunatic, as I'd call him). Many people keeping an eye on what's going on around the world are rightly concerned!

In Victoria, they're trying to push through permanent pandemic powers? Why permanent? Alarm bells? Nah, all juts a conspiracy theory...... honest...... like mandations..... like vaccine certificates.... like segregation.....

If people aren't alarmed at the direction of travel here, I'm truly perplexed.

You've gone for the media alarmist focus on extremes to get clicks and have applied it generally. Use common sense, instead of looking at individual statements by, dare I say it, vote seeking politicians who as you know lie.

I am using common sense to see the patterns of how things have gone over the last 18 months.

I'm using common sense to see the pattern of governments around the world. I'm using common sense when wondering why Dan Andrews needs permanent pandemic powers in Victoria.

I'm using common sense when seeing the the most minor segregation (vax passports) have no scientific evidence justifying their use, yet many many countries have them. I'm seeing them happen first, then segregation in some countries, then the threat of mandations.

I'm using common sense seeing this 'direction of travel'.

I'm using common sense when I realise that medical autonomy is a big issue for many people, and rightly so.

You are so wrapped up in covid covid covid, I think you're totally missing the bigger picture.

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(11-22-2021, 01:35 PM)baggy1 Wrote: [ -> ]When cases go up means nothing, cases are up and because of the vaccine people are being kept out of hospital, if people can't tie those two stats together then god help them after two years with this. If hospitalisations go up to levels that we have had before we will simply need to go back into lockdown, if we allow hospitals to get overwhelmed then every person that needs that service suffers.

You go to extremes by ignoring common sense, people lose their jobs caring for the vulnerable because they have more chance of giving the people they care for a disease that will kill them than vaccinated people. People would get locked up for breaching any lockdown because they erm breached the lockdown, not because they are unvaccinated. If we face another lockdown then everyone is in that boat, not just the unvaccinated.

The stats show that we have kept the hospital levels stable for 4 months now, encourage the take up of jabs over this winter period and we should be out of the worst of it, relax now and we will lose the freedoms that we have worked hard to get.

I meant hospitalisations. That was lazy typing of mine, presuming that cases go up in the next few months, hospitalisations will too.

I am not ignoring common sense. You are blind to what's happening around the world. First its care homes, then nhs, then other jobs. Testing worked fine anyway in the care homes! Now there's an even bigger shortage of staff! There's plenty of countries who have not stopped at working with the vulnerable. Look around the world. It will steadily increase to other jobs. Use your common sense! Look at the direction of travel.

Lockdowns for unvaccinated happened in Austria last week! They are mandating vaccines with the threat of huge fines or prison. Its not happened here yet, but do you not think it will? Use your common sense! It will (if they can get away with it)! How can you not see that?

I'm not encouraging anyone to do anything, its their body, their business. Your last sentence sums it up, "working hard to get freedoms"..... Freedom of what people put in theirs body is theirs, not the states.

So, how far would you go? As far as Austria?

Baggy1, when it comes to our government segregating society, I bet you'll justify it but I hope you don't. Its gross.

But I see you justify each stage as we move towards mandation, through coercion.

So where do you think is a step too far? Prison? Heavy fines? Segregation?

Can I ask you Backsidebaggie what should be done to alleviate this pandemic? You say a lot about what shouldn’t be done but forgive me if I’m wrong but I cannot see anything in your posts about what should be done. Forgive me if I’ve missed strategies and ideas that you think should be implemented but could you reiterate them for me?

(11-23-2021, 11:24 PM)Brentbaggie Wrote: [ -> ]Can I ask you Backsidebaggie what should be done to alleviate this pandemic? You say a lot about what shouldn’t be done but forgive me if I’m wrong but I cannot see anything in your posts about what should be done. Forgive me if I’ve missed strategies and ideas that you think should be implemented but could you reiterate them for me?

I don't have the answers, I never pretended to, but I've pointed out a number of things that don't add up, repeated lies and polcieis being brought in that were once ruled out, things being done that don't have evidence of even working, and a worrying direction of travel. And a huge divide that is growing and getting more angry, as seen by the scenes developing in some European countries recently.

The most baffling part for me, undoubtedly, is why we don't acknowledge that recovery from COVID gives protection from COVID. That is a fact. It's not complete protection but then neither is the vaccine. Why is this information not being used at all when informing public policy?

Sliced Wrote:The most baffling part for me, undoubtedly, is why we don't acknowledge that recovery from COVID gives protection from COVID. That is a fact. It's not complete protection but then neither is the vaccine. Why is this information not being used at all when informing public policy?

My experience only , here goes.
 I had Covid way back at the very start. Unproven as there was no testing then and I wasn't admitted to hospital. It was without doubt the most severe virus I've ever suffered. Two full weeks of coughing, fever and aching. That was early 2020 and I have no doubt it was Covid.  In 2021 I had the two vaccinations (by June).  Recently I had a cold and tested positive for Covid. No other symptoms and I was barely troubled.  In my opinion, it seems I have antibodies from the virus and the jabs which prevented me from experiencing anything worse. Obviously I could transmit it and fortunately I wasn't troubled by heavyweight symptoms.
 In my circles I have heard of many double jabbed people who have since had Covid, all bar one have been ok and that one thinks he may have been in huge trouble without the jabs. Make of that what you will.

The vaccine, and repeated boosters indefinitely, will be mandated in the end. Or at the very least required to such a degree it’s virtually impossible to have any kind of normal life.

It’s not hard to see how governments are edging towards this. Debates on, for example, whether people working with the vulnerable require it are only one aspect of a much bigger issue IMO, as that’s just a stepping stone - a job that’s easier to mandate first. There’s way too many things happened that don’t make sense for me to trust any government right now. In my opinion they’re boiling the frog slowly.

Unless something very significant happens and there’s a big change in direction, it’s a booster every year for life or second class living. The state will decide.

Whether people are happy for the state to decide on medical treatment/vaccines should be the question people ask themselves, whatever their feelings on this particular jab. I know how I stand on this, but I’d just say whatever anyone’s opinion, there’s a bigger picture. This isn’t just about the covid jab, so don’t make your mind up based on only that. In my opinion.

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(11-24-2021, 04:13 PM)Sliced Wrote: [ -> ]The most baffling part for me, undoubtedly, is why we don't acknowledge that recovery from COVID gives protection from COVID. That is a fact. It's not complete protection but then neither is the vaccine. Why is this information not being used at all when informing public policy?

https://news.sky.com/story/people-in-res...sf-twitter

Who’d have thought it? I was told a few posts ago that this policy on care staff was common sense. Really??? Absolute madness IMO, when testing has worked fine. NHS next, then other jobs IMO.

(11-24-2021, 07:13 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote: [ -> ]The vaccine, and repeated boosters indefinitely, will be mandated in the end. Or at the very least required to such a degree it’s virtually impossible to have any kind of normal life.

It’s not hard to see how governments are edging towards this. Debates on, for example, whether people working with the vulnerable require it are only one aspect of a much bigger issue IMO, as that’s just a stepping stone - a job that’s easier to mandate first. There’s way too many things happened that don’t make sense for me to trust any government right now. In my opinion they’re boiling the frog slowly.

Unless something very significant happens and there’s a big change in direction, it’s a booster every year for life or second class living. The state will decide.

Whether people are happy for the state to decide on medical treatment/vaccines should be the question people ask themselves, whatever their feelings on this particular jab. I know how I stand on this, but I’d just say whatever anyone’s opinion, there’s a bigger picture. This isn’t just about the covid jab, so don’t make your mind up based on only that. In my opinion.

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(11-24-2021, 04:13 PM)Sliced Wrote: [ -> ]The most baffling part for me, undoubtedly, is why we don't acknowledge that recovery from COVID gives protection from COVID. That is a fact. It's not complete protection but then neither is the vaccine. Why is this information not being used at all when informing public policy?

https://news.sky.com/story/people-in-res...sf-twitter

Who’d have thought it? I was told a few posts ago that this policy on care staff was common sense. Really??? Absolute madness IMO, when testing has worked fine. NHS next, then other jobs IMO.

Holy Moly bb, you really need to pack in the tin hat theories. Johnson, Hancock and whoever was on the podium that day made stupid unpromisable promises on a regular basis, nothing changed the trajectory of what was needed until the jab came in. Now we have the jab we are still learning but IMO not far off, we appear to have stumbled into a solution in that we have high numbers of jabbed aligned with high number with immunity from having had covid. This appears to be keeping the hospitalisations at a steady level (just over 6k today compared with just over 5k at the start of August) despite the fact we are running as normal in virtually every sense (not certain where you feel it is virtually impossible to have any sort of normal life). I imagine that they are being over cautious going into winter because we simply don't know how it will go, I expect it to increase but not to previous levels, hence why there is such a big focus on getting the vaccine.

And as for care homes, if you think that care homes weren't always leaving people in their pyjamas until tea time or putting them in someone else's clothes regularly then you haven't been paying much attention. There has always been a job shortage in the sector, that doesn't mean it is sensible at this point to have someone unvaccinated and caring for the vulnerable. 

You've been banging on about the conspiracy theory that this is a government control conspiracy driven by what we can't say, but it really is the government reflecting what the majority of society think. If it does help I do believe that by spring I think they will recognise that a combination of the jab and previous infections will mean that we can get back to normal and this is why they have put the NHS date back to April 1st so that they can see how the winter goes. If I'm wrong I'll join the resistance with you and fight them on the barricades.

Numbers in hospital down to 6,062 in England after being 7,291 on the 3rd Nov, 5,017 on the 29th Sept, 6,236 on the 1st Sept and 4,944 on the 4th August - all pretty steady but expect it to grow over the next few months.