UK Covid death toll

[backsidebaggie]

I'm not making it binary.

Austria and Germany are. Get jabbed or get fined/imprisoned.

Vaccine passports are. Get jabbed or stay away from social events.

Javid is. Get jabbed or lose your job.

Correct!

And don't forget. Have the vaccine, or you're an anti vaxxer! Totally binary! You can't be pro-vaccine and just not want this one..... Nope, binary!

[baggy1]

No Baggy1, I'm basing my points on what every world government said when the vaccines came out. And not only that, but the scientists themselves. Not just Hancock's and Boris's particular statements. Gove, Zahawi, Johnson all repeatedly said no vax passports. No one ever suggested segregating society based on a medical choice. Hancock was very clear about it being a jab for adults, not kids. Dismiss him as an idiot if you want (he is), but he was part of the government. If they keep lying, then you have to expect people to stop listening! The experts did not give a precise figure of how many people would need to be vaccinated, fine. So now they're trying to increase take up, but don't know how many need to get it, you think people are going to be persuaded? I firmly believe the booster take up will be lower than the first 2 jabs.

Interestingly, recent reports are that the scientists advising the government are against vaccine passports and any segregation, as they can see the damage it is doing.

But this is the point. They're full of shit - I agree. In that case, why the hell do you think people are going to change their mind now about a vaccine and do what they're being asked by the very people who have lied repeatedly, and got everything wrong?

You say it'll take years to get to herd immunity? And always was? There have been many scientists along the way who have not said this would take years. Only a few weeks ago some were predicting it would fizzle out by spring 2022 (I don't think it will).

And many people are not basing their decision on misinformation. They are basing it on the official statistics for their risk in their age group. Presuming they are all getting advice of youtube is extremely lazy and wrong, and is an example of the division that has been created. Yes, there will be some, but many just look at the stats for their age and weight etc, and that's it. They don't want it.

And "if we need to use bigger spanners in the box" means what exactly? Segregating society? Forcing people? Fining people? You are aware that many of these things were called "tin foil hat" ideas last year. How far are you prepared to go Baggy1? What are you comfortable with if/when the hospitalisations go up and further measures are called for to increase vaccine take up (for a vaccine that hasn't got us out of this anyway)?

I know my stance, and I'm not comfortable with coercion, segregation, fining, prison, or force. That's called being normal! The fact I'm having to actually make that statement is alarming, to say the least!

So you're basing your points on 12 month old statements and you don't consider that we have learned many things this year. I'd bring your understanding up to date if I were you.

And I don't recall where I said people were basing their views on youtube (lately anyway), you attributing that comment to me in this discussion is extremely lazy and wrong.

And I have no idea why you don't realise that everything is linked, if we do see lives starting to be lost then we will have to put restictions in place, that has to be the most common sense statement ever. All this noise because some people don't want to get vaccinated when the overwhelming data on the nearly 8 Billion jabs dished out show it is as safe as any other medicine out there.

[Protheroe]

I sense Boris & The Saj will be looking nervously at the unrest on Eurovision.

[baggy1]

I'm not making it binary.

Austria and Germany are. Get jabbed or get fined/imprisoned.

Vaccine passports are. Get jabbed or stay away from social events.

Javid is. Get jabbed or lose your job.

I meant binary as the only solution, we're at a point where it is clear that it takes all measures and if we, as the public, take less of one of those measures then one of the others has to increase. This really isn't either / or any more - two years of experience with this virus has taught us that. Vaccines alone won't save us, but hey are necessary in being part of the jigsaw, without people getting jabbed then that jigsaw simply won't be complete.

[backsidebaggie]

No Baggy1, I'm basing my points on what every world government said when the vaccines came out. And not only that, but the scientists themselves. Not just Hancock's and Boris's particular statements. Gove, Zahawi, Johnson all repeatedly said no vax passports. No one ever suggested segregating society based on a medical choice. Hancock was very clear about it being a jab for adults, not kids. Dismiss him as an idiot if you want (he is), but he was part of the government. If they keep lying, then you have to expect people to stop listening! The experts did not give a precise figure of how many people would need to be vaccinated, fine. So now they're trying to increase take up, but don't know how many need to get it, you think people are going to be persuaded? I firmly believe the booster take up will be lower than the first 2 jabs.

Interestingly, recent reports are that the scientists advising the government are against vaccine passports and any segregation, as they can see the damage it is doing.

But this is the point. They're full of shit - I agree. In that case, why the hell do you think people are going to change their mind now about a vaccine and do what they're being asked by the very people who have lied repeatedly, and got everything wrong?

You say it'll take years to get to herd immunity? And always was? There have been many scientists along the way who have not said this would take years. Only a few weeks ago some were predicting it would fizzle out by spring 2022 (I don't think it will).

And many people are not basing their decision on misinformation. They are basing it on the official statistics for their risk in their age group. Presuming they are all getting advice of youtube is extremely lazy and wrong, and is an example of the division that has been created. Yes, there will be some, but many just look at the stats for their age and weight etc, and that's it. They don't want it.

And "if we need to use bigger spanners in the box" means what exactly? Segregating society? Forcing people? Fining people? You are aware that many of these things were called "tin foil hat" ideas last year. How far are you prepared to go Baggy1? What are you comfortable with if/when the hospitalisations go up and further measures are called for to increase vaccine take up (for a vaccine that hasn't got us out of this anyway)?

I know my stance, and I'm not comfortable with coercion, segregation, fining, prison, or force. That's called being normal! The fact I'm having to actually make that statement is alarming, to say the least!

So you're basing your points on 12 month old statements and you don't consider that we have learned many things this year. I'd bring your understanding up to date if I were you.

And I don't recall where I said people were basing their views on youtube (lately anyway), you attributing that comment to me in this discussion is extremely lazy and wrong.

And I have no idea why you don't realise that everything is linked, if we do see lives starting to be lost then we will have to put restictions in place, that has to be the most common sense statement ever. All this noise because some people don't want to get vaccinated when the overwhelming data on the nearly 8 Billion jabs dished out show it is as safe as any other medicine out there.

No, I'm not basing my understanding on 12 month old statements. I'm basing it on the same repetitive thing happening over and over again. They keep lying. They keep doing things that don't make sense. I'm up to date and I realise now not to trust the latest absolute crap they're coming out with. If you buy the "its changed so I believe them now", I'd learn from the past if I were you.

I quoted youtube as an example because you said it was based on misinformation. Not true. Many have based it on official stats for their age group. That was my point on youtube.

Its not "all this noise because some don't want to be vaccinated". That is a nonsense. Some don't want to. That's fact. Accept it. You may not agree, I may not agree, but that is irrelevant. The noise is happening because some countries are starting to segregate society, strongly coerce people into it, sack them and now in some places fine and imprison them! Jesus christ if you can't see an issue here, I'm perplexed. People are well aware that this is bigger than a vaccine. They're also well aware this sort of thing was a conspiracy theory 12 month ago. Now its happening in some countries not too far from us.

There will be many governments now watching to see if Austria get away with it. if they do, expect it elsewhere.

You may say all this noise just for a vaccine. Medical autonomy is huge to a lot of people. It goes way beyond this vaccine. If you don't get why, then no wonder you don't understand the protests.

[baggy1]

No Baggy1, I'm basing my points on what every world government said when the vaccines came out. And not only that, but the scientists themselves. Not just Hancock's and Boris's particular statements. Gove, Zahawi, Johnson all repeatedly said no vax passports. No one ever suggested segregating society based on a medical choice. Hancock was very clear about it being a jab for adults, not kids. Dismiss him as an idiot if you want (he is), but he was part of the government. If they keep lying, then you have to expect people to stop listening! The experts did not give a precise figure of how many people would need to be vaccinated, fine. So now they're trying to increase take up, but don't know how many need to get it, you think people are going to be persuaded? I firmly believe the booster take up will be lower than the first 2 jabs.

Interestingly, recent reports are that the scientists advising the government are against vaccine passports and any segregation, as they can see the damage it is doing.

But this is the point. They're full of shit - I agree. In that case, why the hell do you think people are going to change their mind now about a vaccine and do what they're being asked by the very people who have lied repeatedly, and got everything wrong?

You say it'll take years to get to herd immunity? And always was? There have been many scientists along the way who have not said this would take years. Only a few weeks ago some were predicting it would fizzle out by spring 2022 (I don't think it will).

And many people are not basing their decision on misinformation. They are basing it on the official statistics for their risk in their age group. Presuming they are all getting advice of youtube is extremely lazy and wrong, and is an example of the division that has been created. Yes, there will be some, but many just look at the stats for their age and weight etc, and that's it. They don't want it.

And "if we need to use bigger spanners in the box" means what exactly? Segregating society? Forcing people? Fining people? You are aware that many of these things were called "tin foil hat" ideas last year. How far are you prepared to go Baggy1? What are you comfortable with if/when the hospitalisations go up and further measures are called for to increase vaccine take up (for a vaccine that hasn't got us out of this anyway)?

I know my stance, and I'm not comfortable with coercion, segregation, fining, prison, or force. That's called being normal! The fact I'm having to actually make that statement is alarming, to say the least!

So you're basing your points on 12 month old statements and you don't consider that we have learned many things this year. I'd bring your understanding up to date if I were you.

And I don't recall where I said people were basing their views on youtube (lately anyway), you attributing that comment to me in this discussion is extremely lazy and wrong.

And I have no idea why you don't realise that everything is linked, if we do see lives starting to be lost then we will have to put restictions in place, that has to be the most common sense statement ever. All this noise because some people don't want to get vaccinated when the overwhelming data on the nearly 8 Billion jabs dished out show it is as safe as any other medicine out there.

No, I'm not basing my understanding on 12 month statement. I'm basing it on the same repetitive thing happening over and over again. They keep lying. They keep doing things that don't make sense. I'm up to date and I realise now not to trust the latest absolute crap they're coming out with. If you buy the "its changed so I believe them now", I'd learn from the past if I were you.

I quoted youtube as an example because you said it was based on misinformation. Not true. Many have based it on official stats for their age group. That was my point on youtube.

Its not "all this noise because some don't want to be vaccinated". That is a nonsense. Some don't want to. That's fact. Accept it. You may not agree, I may not agree, but that is irrelevant. The noise is happening because some countries are starting to segregate society, strongly coerce people into it, sack them and now in some places fine and imprison them! Jesus christ if you can't see an issue here, I'm perplexed. People are well aware that this is bigger than a vaccine. They're also well aware this sort of thing was a conspiracy theory 12 month ago. Now its happening in some countries not too far from us.

You may say all this noise just for a vaccine. Medical autonomy is huge to a lot of people. It goes way beyond this vaccine. If you don't get why, then no wonder you don't understand the protests.

You keep basing your points on known liars - there is your main problem. Start listening to experts on the subject, not just the ones that echo your beliefs but the wider expert community. We used to be amazed at mormoms who wouldn't allow blood transfusions to save kids lives and yet we stand there and listen to 'experts' who rail against the 8 Billion doses of a safe vaccine and think it's ok? 

Give people facts on the vaccine, not vague 'what ifs' or 'we don't know enough about it' statements. There are 8 Billion doses that have been dished out over a 12 month period - it's safe. There are bound to be some people who won't have it, no problem, but 25% of the population - that's down to the same level of misinformation and lying from 'expert' sources, and yet you highlight the bullshit and lying of one side. Instead of focussing your points on the lying government look into the misinformation that is out there and educate people. Or don't and then moan that we are back in a lockdown.

[backsidebaggie]

I sense Boris & The Saj will be looking nervously at the unrest on Eurovision.

I now what you mean, but I'd say looking with interest, rather than nervously. Same as many western governments.

I'm disgusted the politicians here aren't condemning Austria, but we know why. Because they're seeing if they can get away with the same.

---

No Baggy1, I'm basing my points on what every world government said when the vaccines came out. And not only that, but the scientists themselves. Not just Hancock's and Boris's particular statements. Gove, Zahawi, Johnson all repeatedly said no vax passports. No one ever suggested segregating society based on a medical choice. Hancock was very clear about it being a jab for adults, not kids. Dismiss him as an idiot if you want (he is), but he was part of the government. If they keep lying, then you have to expect people to stop listening! The experts did not give a precise figure of how many people would need to be vaccinated, fine. So now they're trying to increase take up, but don't know how many need to get it, you think people are going to be persuaded? I firmly believe the booster take up will be lower than the first 2 jabs.

Interestingly, recent reports are that the scientists advising the government are against vaccine passports and any segregation, as they can see the damage it is doing.

But this is the point. They're full of shit - I agree. In that case, why the hell do you think people are going to change their mind now about a vaccine and do what they're being asked by the very people who have lied repeatedly, and got everything wrong?

You say it'll take years to get to herd immunity? And always was? There have been many scientists along the way who have not said this would take years. Only a few weeks ago some were predicting it would fizzle out by spring 2022 (I don't think it will).

And many people are not basing their decision on misinformation. They are basing it on the official statistics for their risk in their age group. Presuming they are all getting advice of youtube is extremely lazy and wrong, and is an example of the division that has been created. Yes, there will be some, but many just look at the stats for their age and weight etc, and that's it. They don't want it.

And "if we need to use bigger spanners in the box" means what exactly? Segregating society? Forcing people? Fining people? You are aware that many of these things were called "tin foil hat" ideas last year. How far are you prepared to go Baggy1? What are you comfortable with if/when the hospitalisations go up and further measures are called for to increase vaccine take up (for a vaccine that hasn't got us out of this anyway)?

I know my stance, and I'm not comfortable with coercion, segregation, fining, prison, or force. That's called being normal! The fact I'm having to actually make that statement is alarming, to say the least!

So you're basing your points on 12 month old statements and you don't consider that we have learned many things this year. I'd bring your understanding up to date if I were you.

And I don't recall where I said people were basing their views on youtube (lately anyway), you attributing that comment to me in this discussion is extremely lazy and wrong.

And I have no idea why you don't realise that everything is linked, if we do see lives starting to be lost then we will have to put restictions in place, that has to be the most common sense statement ever. All this noise because some people don't want to get vaccinated when the overwhelming data on the nearly 8 Billion jabs dished out show it is as safe as any other medicine out there.

No, I'm not basing my understanding on 12 month statement. I'm basing it on the same repetitive thing happening over and over again. They keep lying. They keep doing things that don't make sense. I'm up to date and I realise now not to trust the latest absolute crap they're coming out with. If you buy the "its changed so I believe them now", I'd learn from the past if I were you.

I quoted youtube as an example because you said it was based on misinformation. Not true. Many have based it on official stats for their age group. That was my point on youtube.

Its not "all this noise because some don't want to be vaccinated". That is a nonsense. Some don't want to. That's fact. Accept it. You may not agree, I may not agree, but that is irrelevant. The noise is happening because some countries are starting to segregate society, strongly coerce people into it, sack them and now in some places fine and imprison them! Jesus christ if you can't see an issue here, I'm perplexed. People are well aware that this is bigger than a vaccine. They're also well aware this sort of thing was a conspiracy theory 12 month ago. Now its happening in some countries not too far from us.

You may say all this noise just for a vaccine. Medical autonomy is huge to a lot of people. It goes way beyond this vaccine. If you don't get why, then no wonder you don't understand the protests.

You keep basing your points on known liars - there is your main problem. Start listening to experts on the subject, not just the ones that echo your beliefs but the wider expert community. We used to be amazed at mormoms who wouldn't allow blood transfusions to save kids lives and yet we stand there and listen to 'experts' who rail against the 8 Billion doses of a safe vaccine and think it's ok? 

Give people facts on the vaccine, not vague 'what ifs' or 'we don't know enough about it' statements. There are 8 Billion doses that have been dished out over a 12 month period - it's safe. There are bound to be some people who won't have it, no problem, but 25% of the population - that's down to the same level of misinformation and lying from 'expert' sources, and yet you highlight the bullshit and lying of one side. Instead of focussing your points on the lying government look into the misinformation that is out there and educate people. Or don't and then moan that we are back in a lockdown.

Start listening to the experts? The experts have not ever told us what the end game is.

People have been given tons of facts on the vaccine. Some don't want it. I know you can't comprehend this, but its a fact. Its also a fact that for young people, the risk of covid death is very low. That's a fact. You can debate the low risk from vaccine side effects with them, that's fine, but guess what? They've decided! Its called medical autonomy. You can educate people, you can tell me to, but the fact is for a young healthy person there is not a huge risk from covid, and they don't want to sign up to a lifetime of jabs. You need to accept this. I don't tell anyone what to put in their bodies. Its absolutely none of my business, and its none of yours. They also told people it was a vaccine. Then a booster. Then another? A yearly subscription to covid vaccines? A lot of young people don't want that! And yes many have the flu vaccine annually, but many don't, and they have never been called anti vax, lost their jobs, or in other countries been segregated or fined! That's quite a difference!

We have been consistently told by the government and the experts that the vaccine is the way out of this. The uptake has been good. Yet we're still not out of it, and you think those that don't want it will change their mind?

Serious Covid has a significant link to obesity. Check the stats on this. So where are the government PR machines for people to lose weight? More importantly, why aren't the experts (scientists) pushing this? Why the hell not? That's never been encouraged in 20 months of this pandemic. Why? There are so many things that don't make sense, and whether you want to accept them or not, many people don't.

As I've said, people won't moan when we're back in lockdown. They'll ignore it!!

They'll moan (and probably demonstrate/riot) if we have forced vaccination and medical segregation. I don't blame them. If you can't see why, you're missing the bigger picture. Medical autonomy is HUGE to many people.

I knew this would go this way. People are being slowly persuaded that segregation and even fines/prison is ok. Its starts with the creation of the simple vax vs anti vax division (which is not binary), and over time develops into getting enough people onside thinking this is ok. Its not, its fucking gross.

[baggiebuckster]

The vaccine has always carried a risk v reward ratio. That is why the JVCI looked at data for teenagers and opted for only one dose initially. For older people and more vulnerable then the benefit of taking the vaccine is obvious. For younger people on a personal level it is far from obvious. Yes - we can talk about doing the right thing for society etc but in essence you are asking the younger generation to take a vaccine with known risks to their demographic for the benefit of others who have already been triple jabbed.

[baggy1]

You want someone to tell you the end game? I've heard it all now - how does anyone know what will happen with a completely new virus. The 'end game' is to get hospitalisations to manageable levels, like they currently are in the UK and keep them there. You are confusing getting out of this with getting rid of covid entirely. We will never get rid of covid, we just have to get to manageable levels, if we don't do that then guess what those that don't need the vaccine now will eventually reach a point where they do. And when they do there is a very good chance that they will wish they did more because you have conveniently forgotten that in a year where we had strict measures in place the deaths in this country went up 25%, we need to have the jabs to replace the need for lockdowns, we don't get to wave them both away.

And Covid has a serious link to many underlying factors and I would be pushing for many programs to reduce obesity, smoking, drinking etc but the big difference is numbers, 25% increase in deaths in 12 months simply down to covid in a very restricted environment, imagine doing nothing in that period. We're back to normal, that should show you the success of the vaccine and people should embrace that normal by getting vaccinated to strengthen the freedom we have, not risking it because we 'don't know enough about the vaccine'. Educate, reassure and enjoy the freedoms.

[backsidebaggie]

Here's some examples of what I'm talking about that people are seeing in other countries:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-ne...ates-video

"If you're anti mandate, you're anti vax". LOL, so you can even have the covid jab and be anti vax now. Can't people see how out of control some of the western governments are? This is insane! Literally insane!  You can't even be against mandation/coercion or you're anti vax, according to a politician (or a fucking lunatic, as I'd call him). Many people keeping an eye on what's going on around the world are rightly concerned!

In Victoria, they're trying to push through permanent pandemic powers? Why permanent? Alarm bells? Nah, all juts a conspiracy theory...... honest...... like mandations..... like vaccine certificates.... like segregation.....

If people aren't alarmed at the direction of travel here, I'm truly perplexed.