Sasha Johnson, Black Lives Matter campaigner

[fuzzbox]

coxy134,


I did right a reply to this but it went missing!

---

First of all, it appears that she has had successful surgery, although recovery from a bullet wound in the head won't be an easy thing.

BLM are deploring "an attempt to intimidate or silence her", but a close friend says "as far as I am aware this is related to rival gangs as opposed to her activism" and "she was not the intended victim".

So my question is - does that make it all right then? When did it become acceptable for knife or machete attacks and shootings between rival gangs to just happen? Shrug of the shoulders - not the intended victim, so don't worry, it isn't something more sinister. This kind of thing seems to be happening all the time, all over the country, in all communities.

Police said at this stage there was no evidence to suggest she had received any credible threats against her.

Ms Johnson had been at a party or gathering when she was injured but she did not believe "she was the intended victim.

Meanwhile BLM say "Any attempt to intimidate or silence her, is an attack on all of us.".

And this is why I have such a problem with BLM. It would appear from the Police and eye-witnesses that she was caught up in gang warfare, and was not the intended victim, yet BLM try to make out it was because of her involvement in the BLM movement. Cue more illegal protests and violence in the name of BLM.

Yep, It's annoying. It's one of the things I find frustrating. It's ill-advised - it won't be black people that end racism, it will be fair-minded white people. Unfortunately, this type of thing pushes them away and gives the more racist, vocal minority additional firepower to fight against what is a just cause.

I'm delighted to hear your views Fuzzbox. I'm a middle aged, middle class white guy who is infuriated with the race debates we are having when I recall what things were like in the 80s and 90s and I had to defend an Asian mate who was going to get a kicking just for his skin colour.

I don't think, I genuinely don't, that most people care about skin colour in the UK in this day and age. I'm from an Irish family and seen cousins marry into Afro Caribbean and Iranian families. No one gives a damn in my family of the skin issue.

Culture is a different thing though. A culture of poor morals most people despise. I can't stomach black gangs and their violence, but I can't stomach white underclass scroungers either. It's not about skin, it's about values and being a decent citizen.

I agree there is a problem with cultures. Unfortunately, though, this has been recognised and debated for years and yet those cultures are still there. You could argue it's even worse. 

So bearing that in mind, is it worth our time even debating why these cultures exist? Obviously it is, but we shouldn't hang about expecting a solution before we start doing something. We probably won't get one! Looking to apportion blame doesn't help anyone either.

What I don't think is in dispute is if you are working in a career and feel part of society you're less likely to commit crime. It doesn't matter really why that is, but we know that statistically we have evidence that it is true. 

So therefore we should be doing is making sure that anybody who wants to work or aspire for a career should be given EVERY help possible.

To me, it doesn't matter if the white kid in Blackpool DESERVES the help or if he gets more help than the hard working black kid in Birmingham. Similarly the other way round. Just get the guy working in a fair job and reduce the crime rate.

I would also add you (not 'you' as such) have to be careful when associating gang culture with black people. For instance, in the US, the traditionally black bloods and crips have lost most of their 'turf' to latino gangs that are much more violent. In London, deadly albanian and Romanian gangs have frightened off most of the older black gangs that haven't joined up with newer, imported Jamaican yardie gangs.  Whilst it's usually referred to as a black issue - which it definitely is - it's actually more nuanced than that and affects many poor communities. Conversely, no one has ever walked up to me throwing gang hand signs. Well, except for white people and I think they were joking...

"I don't think, I genuinely don't, that most people care about skin colour in the UK in this day and age. "

I would only say to that, being white, you wouldn't have the same experience as someone who is black. A quick glance at my email inbox would show you that. Using the rationale of witnessing inter-racial marriages to say that most people don't care is deeply flawed. It's also possible that being Irish may mean that through your own family experiences, you may be less tolerant of racism. At least that's what I found with the Irish growing up. It's then natural to extrapolate your viewpoint as the normal 'white' viewpoint.

Having said that, I would agree that most people recognise their own natural prejudices and try and do the right thing. I'm talking ALL People and ALL prejudices here. We all have them, I have them too. It's how we conduct ourselves that matters. Then, hopefully, those prejudices fade to nothing...probably to be replaced by new ones!

[Squid]

This is a bit of a lengthy read but I think it is such a good overview of the infantilising way race and racism is often discussed:

https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/peo...ave-agency

[Sotv]

Ghetto issues are the main problem. A black kid from a united hard working family will do far better in life than some white scally on a council estate whose mum has had 6 kids off 4 different dads and lives on benefits.

Poverty and the inability of the government to intervene with education to get people out of the underclass is far and away the issue rather than skin colour.

America has issues on a completely different scale to what we have here and I hate the fact that we have turned race issues into a huge problem here when we have by and large a racially tolerant country.

Would agree with most of that. 

first paragraph - There is statistical evidence that indicates you are correct.

second paragraph - I would agree with the poverty part. 'Far and away the issue' is probably a little OTT but I would agree that generational poverty is the primary factor. Of course, that opens the debate why certain members of our community are more likely to suffer from generational poverty.

third paragraph -   In my experience of both being black and having lived in a few countries and now primarily the UK and US, I would agree that the UK is more tolerant than most and certainly more so than the USA.  However, I suppose it also depends on how you define 'tolerant' and then it raises the issue of what you would consider 'acceptable'.

FWIW, I do believe social deprivation is the biggest issue. Whilst I generally support BLM, I do wonder what a white kid in a shit estate on the outskirts of Blackpool thinks. He's not getting a fair chance either - who's looking out for him? 

In conclusion, racism is part of a bigger problem. There's nothing to stop us trying to solve both at the same time. The same approach would work equally effectively with ALL underserved parts of our community.

I say help them ALL to get up and working so I have to pay less taxes and my home is less likely to get burgled!

That just about nails it. The problem of  course is that when you talk about helping everyone to work and get up you're accused of demonising anyone on benefits

[fuzzbox]

That just about nails it. The problem of  course is that when you talk about helping everyone to work and get up you're accused of demonising anyone on benefits

Helping, not blaming. (Although it's a fine line and you're right, you have to be careful how you phrase things). We can see what 'blame' has done in the race debates. It just stops anything happening and provokes anger.

[Johnnykayeengland]

Anyone who has worked in criminal justice knows that there are always underlying issues.
There is CJ software which itemises the influences on a teen for instance... things like poverty, peers, parents, drugs etc.
The recent statement by an outgoing Chief Constable (forgotten which one) that if he were given £5m he'd spend £1m on policing, and £4 m on welfare is not some woolly liberal view. It's a recognition of reality.

But ask the Daily Express readers who voted Boris what they think the answer is...!

[Spandaubaggie]

coxy134,


I did right a reply to this but it went missing!

---

First of all, it appears that she has had successful surgery, although recovery from a bullet wound in the head won't be an easy thing.

BLM are deploring "an attempt to intimidate or silence her", but a close friend says "as far as I am aware this is related to rival gangs as opposed to her activism" and "she was not the intended victim".

So my question is - does that make it all right then? When did it become acceptable for knife or machete attacks and shootings between rival gangs to just happen? Shrug of the shoulders - not the intended victim, so don't worry, it isn't something more sinister. This kind of thing seems to be happening all the time, all over the country, in all communities.

Police said at this stage there was no evidence to suggest she had received any credible threats against her.

Ms Johnson had been at a party or gathering when she was injured but she did not believe "she was the intended victim.

Meanwhile BLM say "Any attempt to intimidate or silence her, is an attack on all of us.".

And this is why I have such a problem with BLM. It would appear from the Police and eye-witnesses that she was caught up in gang warfare, and was not the intended victim, yet BLM try to make out it was because of her involvement in the BLM movement. Cue more illegal protests and violence in the name of BLM.

Yep, It's annoying. It's one of the things I find frustrating. It's ill-advised - it won't be black people that end racism, it will be fair-minded white people. Unfortunately, this type of thing pushes them away and gives the more racist, vocal minority additional firepower to fight against what is a just cause.

I'm delighted to hear your views Fuzzbox. I'm a middle aged, middle class white guy who is infuriated with the race debates we are having when I recall what things were like in the 80s and 90s and I had to defend an Asian mate who was going to get a kicking just for his skin colour.

I don't think, I genuinely don't, that most people care about skin colour in the UK in this day and age. I'm from an Irish family and seen cousins marry into Afro Caribbean and Iranian families. No one gives a damn in my family of the skin issue.

Culture is a different thing though. A culture of poor morals most people despise. I can't stomach black gangs and their violence, but I can't stomach white underclass scroungers either. It's not about skin, it's about values and being a decent citizen.

I agree there is a problem with cultures. Unfortunately, though, this has been recognised and debated for years and yet those cultures are still there. You could argue it's even worse. 

So bearing that in mind, is it worth our time even debating why these cultures exist? Obviously it is, but we shouldn't hang about expecting a solution before we start doing something. We probably won't get one! Looking to apportion blame doesn't help anyone either.

What I don't think is in dispute is if you are working in a career and feel part of society you're less likely to commit crime. It doesn't matter really why that is, but we know that statistically we have evidence that it is true. 

So therefore we should be doing is making sure that anybody who wants to work or aspire for a career should be given EVERY help possible.

To me, it doesn't matter if the white kid in Blackpool DESERVES the help or if he gets more help than the hard working black kid in Birmingham. Similarly the other way round. Just get the guy working in a fair job and reduce the crime rate.

I would also add you (not 'you' as such) have to be careful when associating gang culture with black people. For instance, in the US, the traditionally black bloods and crips have lost most of their 'turf' to latino gangs that are much more violent. In London, deadly albanian and Romanian gangs have frightened off most of the older black gangs that haven't joined up with newer, imported Jamaican yardie gangs.  Whilst it's usually referred to as a black issue - which it definitely is - it's actually more nuanced than that and affects many poor communities. Conversely, no one has ever walked up to me throwing gang hand signs. Well, except for white people and I think they were joking...

"I don't think, I genuinely don't, that most people care about skin colour in the UK in this day and age. "

I would only say to that,  being white, you wouldn't have the same experience as someone who is black. A quick glance at my email inbox would show you that. Using the rationale of witnessing inter-racial marriages to say that most people don't care is deeply flawed. It's also possible that being Irish may mean that through your own family experiences, you may be less tolerant of racism. At least that's what I found with the Irish growing up. It's then natural to extrapolate your viewpoint as the normal 'white' viewpoint.

Having said that, I would agree that most people recognise their own natural prejudices and try and do the right thing. I'm talking ALL People and ALL prejudices here. We all have them, I have them too. It's how we conduct ourselves that matters. Then, hopefully, those prejudices fade to nothing...probably to be replaced by new ones!

Great response. Hard to argue with any of that.

---

Anyone who has worked in criminal justice knows that there are always underlying issues.
There is CJ software which itemises the influences on a teen for instance... things like poverty, peers, parents, drugs etc.
The recent statement by an outgoing Chief Constable (forgotten which one) that if he were given £5m he'd spend £1m on policing, and £4 m on welfare is not some woolly liberal view. It's a recognition of reality.

But ask the Daily Express readers who voted Boris what they think the answer is...!

I recall seeing a programme about early interventions of people going off the rails in Scandinavia and how it stops kids going down a route where they become a blight on society for all of their lives. The problem we have here is we just build more prisons and stoke up the Daily Hate Mail readers.
It's a stupid way to operate, but trying to invest in such a programme just won't happen as we don't have that sense of society.

[Pipkins]

Its down to parents & upbringing

When a child is born its a blank
It learns from its environment 

At the same time society has made up excuses for peoples bad behaviour
claiming responsibility discipline respect good manners are all optional rather than the norm


A lady I know works as a cleaner at a school for unruly kids
She caught a child throwing food on the floor
She told the child to clean up the mess
The headmaster pulled the woman up & said we don't tell them, we ask them!

A couple adopted two brothers almost from birth
Raised the two boys into a good loving home 
Boys did well at school into sport etc
Then the birth mother contacted them via social media (no law preventing it via this platform)
The chats got more frequent 
Visits took place 
Followed by sleepovers
Eventually the boys moved in with their birth mother despite objections 
Heartbroken adopted parents were contacted by ss about the boys later on
Apparently their school attendance was poor & were suspected of dealing/taking drugs

[Lillwall's left foot]

Its down to parents & upbringing

When a child is born its a blank
It learns from its environment 

At the same time society has made up excuses for peoples bad behaviour
claiming responsibility discipline respect good manners are all optional rather than the norm


A lady I know works as a cleaner at a school for unruly kids
She caught a child throwing food on the floor
She told the child to clean up the mess
The headmaster pulled the woman up & said we don't tell them, we ask them!

A couple adopted two brothers almost from birth
Raised the two boys into a good loving home 
Boys did well at school into sport etc
Then the birth mother contacted them via social media (no law preventing it via this platform)
The chats got more frequent 
Visits took place 
Followed by sleepovers
Eventually the boys moved in with their birth mother despite objections 
Heartbroken adopted parents were contacted by ss about the boys later on
Apparently their school attendance was poor & were suspected of dealing/taking drugs

Parenting and upbringing follows cyclical patterns.  There is no parenting school! If you are a parent with a poor education, low self esteem and little aspiration in life how do you educate your children to be different.  If the only way you can see people around you making money and getting peer respect is through criminal activity then you may very well follow that path.

It is societies job to help break the cycle and plug the gaps through school and out of school provision.  To show these kids the alternative options and provide them with aspirations.  

Demonizing the poorest in society as scroungers or criminals without addressing the the cause is lazy and counterproductive.  And I don't think anyone can make judgement unless they have been in the situation themselves.....I can tell you from personal experience that trying to live on benefits is no Disneyland break.

[CA Baggie]

When mass immigration happened in the 50/60s for those from the Caribbean they were often given the poorer jobs (the stuff we didn’t want to do) with low pay in poorer parts of towns and cities with low quality housing.

This inequality mixed with the racism that was encountered (quite openly for several years) has created and left a disproportionate amount of immigrants living in social inequality and mixing with the local population who also inhibited those areas.

With the lack of opportunities etc and need for money a market is created for crime. All the social aspects of that then follow through. Good, honest people move away to be replaced by like minded people. You end up with “sink estates”, generations of families that haven’t worked, poor education from schools that survive the day rather than educate and people slipping into this subculture. Gangs thrive as it’s easy to make money and offer protection against others.

What starts as financial poverty turns into poverty of aspiration. Crime (certainly drugs) does often pay well so it’s not a financial thing. It’s the lack of education, morals from the environment and an ability to see beyond this existence. The life that many of us lead: nice, reasonably paid jobs, cars, foreign holidays, houses, stable families and, yes, privilege is seen not for them. Those things are what happen to other people.

It’s interesting to see that as we introduce new immigration (Asians, Eastern Europeans as examples) that they’re falling into this too. You don’t have to pass exams to drug run, to pull a knife or gun on people etc. and when that’s what you’re surrounded by then it’s sink or swim.

As with most problems it’s not all the fault of one particular thing, but a mixture. A big part of that is social inequality and the division between the poorer section and the wealthier.

Thems me onions anyway. Sorry for rambling, if we can educate and provide an alternate life then I’m sure many would happily take it.

[Kit Kat Chunky]

Shot by 4 black men, according to the police.