In any other time

[JOK]

Where the fuck have I played down the seriousness of the pandemic or how it has impacted in the U.K.?
I have not compared Sweden with us I have contrasted their approach which was opposite to us and as you say they were held up as an ideal some months ago. They didn’t lock down, we did. Eventually and the outcomes are not too dissimilar. I take offence at people taking a myopic view and simplistic stance to suit their political agenda. 
I have changed my view, I have said, it not fully formed yet because it’s not fully informed despite your bullying and shouting. You are not the fount of all knowledge.
Again you will have to show where I have  defended Johnson. Suggesting things may not be one dimensional is not defending anyone. 
Your correct, there isn’t a debate because you won’t have one. If your view isn’t accepted that’s it. The other person is wrong, no debate!

[baggy1]

Let's recap, I start by staying that Johnson's actions have made this situation worse for this country and make some points on why, you then list those points and provide counterpoints to each one of them. You water down the fact that we have one of the worst death rates in the world by saying it's not as straight forward as that. That is where you played down the seriousness of the pandemic and how it has impacted on the UK. The comment you made was effectively saying 'it's not that bad, other countries might be worse in time" - is that a fair summary to your question "where have I...."

After this virus had been on its 1st global tour we have turned out one of the worst. And what amplifies that is that we are one of the wealthiest and should be able to deal with this equally with others at the top table. - we simply haven't, but you still fell the need to muddy the waters because that appears easier than actually criticising Johnson. The decisions and actions he made simply made things worse - he actually stood at the lectern and said that he was still shaking peoples hands when we were on the brink of the virus launching in the UK. He denied that it was worth stopping public events, even when it came to closing the pubs he said we'll do it after everyone had a good last blast on Friday night - he simply didn't take it seriously and that is why he should be held to account, but he won't because people are that desperate to get Brexit over the line he is indispensable for some reason. Otherwise why aren't you calling him out on this topic?

My 1st and subsequent responses were over the top and unnecessarily aggressive - sorry for that. This is a subject I do feel strongly on and I'm not taking this view because I am in the opposition camp, I'm saying this because Johnson is a moron and dangerous for this country. Whoever is in power impacts on everyone and I do want the best person running the country, he isn't the best person to style his own har, fuck knows how he managed to get his hands on the tiller.

[The liquidator]

The reason Sweden is only just a bit better than us is because they went for herd immunity and didn’t lockdown, otherwise they would have been comparable with a similar sized and densely populated country like New Zealand.

Fuck me, it was only a month or so ago that the nay sayers were holding them up as the poster boy of not locking down, now you’re using them to compare with us. Imagine what would have happened if we’d followed their model and not locked down.

I really do take offence at the stupidity of people looking for other reasons in the middle of the worlds worst pandemic for a century. This covid is indiscriminate and deadly. It will, and does, impact more with underlying conditions but that doesn’t mean it won’t hit fit and healthy people.

This is a deadly virus, our leaders didn’t take it seriously enough and that is why we are one of the worst in the world, we have no more obese people than Germany but they handled it better and are better off than us. Comments like we’ve had 6 weeks at less than the average is, at best, misleading and at worst moronic because when enough people say that it becomes - well it’s over isn’t it.

Change your view all you like, on this subject there isn’t a debate. This kills. Playing it down or bringing in other factors to muddy the waters will only give those that are looking for it an excuse to forget about it -simply put the thin end of the wedge.

And back to the point I raised to start with Johnson fucked up in virtually every possible way on this and in normal circumstances he would be dragged over the coals. Instead we get people like yourself who will try and defend with ‘well, it’s not just his fault, there are other factors’, that’s when you’re lost when you can’t see that no matter what with better leadership we would have been in a better place now.

He went with the science .

[baggy1]

He went with the science .

Of course he did

[Protheroe]

No hindsight we had a perfect example of what was going to happen in Italy and many including leading experts said an earlier lockdown was needed. We were advised to test, test, test and we abandoned this strategy in March, the less said about the World Class Track and Trace system the better. So don’t pretend this is hindsight. Nice Boris Johnson tactic of playing to galleries with silly name calling. Fair weather Tory

Name one leading expert without a poltical axe to grind who said we should be locking down *before* we locked down. This is all hindsight.

Not hindsight at all - everybody was talking at the time the Cheltenham was madness, my lad goes every year and we told him not to this year because of this very thing.

And Johnson was running around saying don't worry I've been shaking everyones hand - why would he even have said that if contact like that hadn't been questioned

If the general public knew then the government knew and just because it didn't suit agenda's of profit margins doesn't change that fact.

Not everybody, and certainly no "leading expert". I went to Cheltenham because I weighed up the risks at the time.

This is all hindsight.

[baggy1]

No hindsight we had a perfect example of what was going to happen in Italy and many including leading experts said an earlier lockdown was needed. We were advised to test, test, test and we abandoned this strategy in March, the less said about the World Class Track and Trace system the better. So don’t pretend this is hindsight. Nice Boris Johnson tactic of playing to galleries with silly name calling. Fair weather Tory

Name one leading expert without a poltical axe to grind who said we should be locking down *before* we locked down. This is all hindsight.

Not hindsight at all - everybody was talking at the time the Cheltenham was madness, my lad goes every year and we told him not to this year because of this very thing.

And Johnson was running around saying don't worry I've been shaking everyones hand - why would he even have said that if contact like that hadn't been questioned

If the general public knew then the government knew and just because it didn't suit agenda's of profit margins doesn't change that fact.

Not everybody, and certainly no "leading expert". I went to Cheltenham because I weighed up the risks at the time.

This is all hindsight.

So basically you knew about it and made a decision based on the risks, but you weren't talking about it - ok

[Protheroe]

No hindsight we had a perfect example of what was going to happen in Italy and many including leading experts said an earlier lockdown was needed. We were advised to test, test, test and we abandoned this strategy in March, the less said about the World Class Track and Trace system the better. So don’t pretend this is hindsight. Nice Boris Johnson tactic of playing to galleries with silly name calling. Fair weather Tory

Name one leading expert without a poltical axe to grind who said we should be locking down *before* we locked down. This is all hindsight.

Not hindsight at all - everybody was talking at the time the Cheltenham was madness, my lad goes every year and we told him not to this year because of this very thing.

And Johnson was running around saying don't worry I've been shaking everyones hand - why would he even have said that if contact like that hadn't been questioned

If the general public knew then the government knew and just because it didn't suit agenda's of profit margins doesn't change that fact.

Not everybody, and certainly no "leading expert". I went to Cheltenham because I weighed up the risks at the time.

This is all hindsight.

So basically you knew about it and made a decision based on the risks, but you weren't talking about it - ok

Most of you on here are forever stating that the government should follow "the science" (whatever version "the science" is at any one time that is. At that point the government was following "the science" whether you agree with it or not.

I'd prefer the government had followed probability. If it had done then schools wouldn't have closed. All through the pandemic kids have been more likely to have been struck by lightning than to suffer serious complications due to Covid19 and they're far more likely to have been killed on the way to or from school in a road traffic accident.

We both consider that the government has had piss poor judgement - but for entirely different reasons.

[Ossian]

The time taken to read this columnist is never wasted...

Jonathan Freedland

Recaps just a few examples of the kind of stuff that's going on - and will continue to go on - every day.

[baggy1]

Most of you on here are forever stating that the government should follow "the science" (whatever version "the science" is at any one time that is. At that point the government was following "the science" whether you agree with it or not.

I'd prefer the government had followed probability. If it had done then schools wouldn't have closed. All through the pandemic kids have been more likely to have been struck by lightning than to suffer serious complications due to Covid19 and they're far more likely to have been killed on the way to or from school in a road traffic accident.

We both consider that the government has had piss poor judgement - but for entirely different reasons.

You talk of hindsight and then when it's pointed out to you (and by your own admission) that it was widely being discussed and there was a great deal of awareness you move the argument to 'they were following the science' and they should have used probability.

Let's put these to bed seeing as you appear to have admitted by omission that your argument about hindsight is just wind.

Following the science - SAGE is made up of a number of scientists that have differing opinions and viewpoints. They all put those viewpoints across and a decision is made by politicians - in this case the initial decision to look to herd immunity, as advocated by the chief political advisor, was a decision made by Johnson and his cabal. They were not being led by science, they used whichever one suited Cummings' favoured experiment of the day.

And probability - unfortunately, and you know this, without any empirical data you can't make a decision based on probability. At the point they started lockdown there was no data as such that we have today so they couldn't make a decision based on probability. I will give you one point which is that by the time they were opening pubs they should have known (FFS we were discussing it on a football bored) what the probability in relation to kids contracting, however because they are so reactive they hadn't given any thought to how to do it whilst protecting teachers (who are susceptible to it) as the same time.

Interestingly btw - I recall you 'losing your shit' about kids going back to school at that point because of the damage it was doing to their education but interestingly were quite relaxed about the clusterfuck of exam downgrading yesterday citing 'life experience'. I'm surprised you and the missus and kids haven't been enriched by the adversity you've all been through and weren't celebrating it at the time.

[Solihull Throstle]

We are sacrificing our futures here for an ideological dream / nightmare.

Yes, the further nationalisation of private debt and the debasement of our currency as a store of value.

No other political party would do anything differently either.

In this context Brexit doesn't matter one jot.

#BuyGold

I think many people are struggling to get food on the table and pay their rent / mortgage at present.
Enjoy your gold.
#differentworld