In any other time

[Protheroe]

I imagine other party’s would given the intel have locked down earlier. It was obvious what was going to hit us when when we had an oven ready example in Italy to learn from.

I imagine other party leaders wouldn’t have not attended Cobra meetings on the brink of a pandemic

I imagine other party’s would have not abandoned track and trace in March only to give dubious contracts to various inappropriate companies

Captain Hindsight strikes again:

"The Science" did not urge an earlier lockdown. It was not "obvious", and a healthcare situation as extreme as Italy didn't occur in the UK.

You don't understand what COBRA meetings are for, and I love the double negative.

We'll never know will we?

---

I think December 31st is an absolutely ideal time to cut our cord with the EU, if not sooner. As we're a huge importer of goods I'd also be adopting a position of unilateral free trade which will give our economy a phenomenal  boost - provided that we let failing uncompetitive industries go.

You mean the previously competitive industries pre-Brexit that are only going to fail because of Brexit?

And increasing unemployment at a time when unemployment is going to increase massively is suicidal.

No, I mean the companies we shouldn't have kept alive after 2008, which are still parasites on the economy now - crowding out innovation, suppressing wages and productivity.

Answer me this - is there any point whatsoever in supporting High Street retail businesses loaded with debt that no one wants to visit anymore? 

Is there any point supporting engineering businesses surviving only because they manage to service the interest on debts?

Is there any point bunging millions at the entertainment industry which is dead for the forseeable future?

We only make things worse for ourselves by supporting losers. £Trillions of publically backed debt to support moribund business is the MO of the EU, not the UK.

[Derek Hardballs]

I imagine other party’s would given the intel have locked down earlier. It was obvious what was going to hit us when when we had an oven ready example in Italy to learn from.

I imagine other party leaders wouldn’t have not attended Cobra meetings on the brink of a pandemic

I imagine other party’s would have not abandoned track and trace in March only to give dubious contracts to various inappropriate companies

Captain Hindsight strikes again:

"The Science" did not urge an earlier lockdown. It was not "obvious", and a healthcare situation as extreme as Italy didn't occur in the UK.

You don't understand what COBRA meetings are for, and I love the double negative.

We'll never know will we?

---

I think December 31st is an absolutely ideal time to cut our cord with the EU, if not sooner. As we're a huge importer of goods I'd also be adopting a position of unilateral free trade which will give our economy a phenomenal  boost - provided that we let failing uncompetitive industries go.

You mean the previously competitive industries pre-Brexit that are only going to fail because of Brexit?

And increasing unemployment at a time when unemployment is going to increase massively is suicidal.

No, I mean the companies we shouldn't have kept alive after 2008, which are still parasites on the economy now - crowding out innovation, suppressing wages and productivity.

Answer me this - is there any point whatsoever in supporting High Street retail businesses loaded with debt that no one wants to visit anymore? 

Is there any point supporting engineering businesses surviving only because they manage to service the interest on debts?

Is there any point bunging millions at the entertainment industry which is dead for the forseeable future?

We only make things worse for ourselves by supporting losers. £Trillions of publically backed debt to support moribund business is the MO of the EU, not the UK.

No hindsight we had a perfect example of what was going to happen in Italy and many including leading experts said an earlier lockdown was needed. We were advised to test, test, test and we abandoned this strategy in March, the less said about the World Class Track and Trace system the better. So don’t pretend this is hindsight. Nice Boris Johnson tactic of playing to galleries with silly name calling. Fair weather Tory

[Borin' Baggie]

---

I think December 31st is an absolutely ideal time to cut our cord with the EU, if not sooner. As we're a huge importer of goods I'd also be adopting a position of unilateral free trade which will give our economy a phenomenal  boost - provided that we let failing uncompetitive industries go.

You mean the previously competitive industries pre-Brexit that are only going to fail because of Brexit?

And increasing unemployment at a time when unemployment is going to increase massively is suicidal.

No, I mean the companies we shouldn't have kept alive after 2008, which are still parasites on the economy now - crowding out innovation, suppressing wages and productivity.

Answer me this - is there any point whatsoever in supporting High Street retail businesses loaded with debt that no one wants to visit anymore? 

Is there any point supporting engineering businesses surviving only because they manage to service the interest on debts?

Is there any point bunging millions at the entertainment industry which is dead for the forseeable future?

We only make things worse for ourselves by supporting losers. £Trillions of publically backed debt to support moribund business is the MO of the EU, not the UK.

Being an EU member is not a barrier to amending how business rates are applied nor does it stop stores shifting towards a showroom model, that was domestic policy and a unilateral free trade policy is unrelated. The key issues with the high street are purely domestic, namely the high capital costs due to the stupid way rent and business rates are applied that stifle the ability of independents to address the demands of the market and as such is completely irrelevant to the point. 

Large engineering firms that were settled, productive, innovative and profitable would not be profitable with unilateral free trade as external competitors would have no barriers whereas domestic competitors would have export restrictions that only apply to them. This will cripple large scale engineering and supply chains in this country, I would know as this is my sector and I have looked at the models for it. Companies that were successful pre-2016 and were still profitable as of 2019 would be liable to collapsing completely or leaving the country with the skills being lost not being replaced as what was previously economical to do is now suddenly uneconomical due to artificial and one sided market barriers.

Propping up the entertainment industry and the arts is about securing jobs in an industry that before Coronavirus was looking very healthy and is only at risk because the UK government couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. Not their fault that shortsighted domestic government legislation is killing them is it? Imagine telling a whole sector that you're willing for them to l

Unilateral free trade is a stupid idea. The support for it is based on false assumptions (namely average tariffs would drop 10% instead of the 3% that they would actually drop), doesn't factor in that acceptance of the new zero-tariff schedules would take years to approve (source: Robert Azevêdo), a significant proportion related to the free trade of services requires the free movement of people in most cases (how do you square the circle?) so as a service based economy we would crippled.

As for the UK's MO, we recently nationalised a satellite company that was going bust as it was losing £100m a week because we are too stupid as a nation to pay the EU for access to Galileo. That's our MO, the EU's is pragmatism, the UK's is spaffing money up the wall. Don't worry though, we might waste billions on a bridge that Boris keeps ignoring advice from engineers is near impossible to build. Our entire ethos as a country is to waste money on stupid shite for no benefit whatsoever, it's the common denominator between every Tory MP and every Labour MP ever elected.

[JOK]

1, This has led to one of the worst death rates in the world, 
2, even the Brexiteers are having second thoughts about at least the timing of it...
3, fuck the economy,
4, fuck the union.
5, fuck the people because the elite few want it delivered.

6, We are sacrificing our futures here for an ideological dream / nightmare.

1, Second in deaths per million, true. (at time of writing) It is not as straight forward as that. (As I'm certain you know but still, let's not spoil a good sound bite) There are other factors which should be taken into the equation. 
2, Are they. What percentage? Who? Try not to mention Davies' criticism of the, as yet, un settled deal.
3, Yet to be known.
4, The Union (if you mean the U.K.) was fracturing anyway. 
5, You mean the majority of those that voted? The majority of Labour voting, working class areas. Those "Elite few" you mean? 
6, Your opinion. As with no.2, yet to be proven.

1. 61k excess deaths in a population of 60 million is far from a sound bite, I'm surprised you even question that one with a vague 'other factors' comment. It was simple, pay attention, turn up to meetings, lock down earlier i think we are well past that argument.
2. Davies and IDS were the leaders of the movement who are questioning it, the remain voting parties polled more than the leave parties in the election but don't let that get in the way of a good vagueness.
3. We're fucked face it
4. oh well that's ok, lets fuck it completely
5. No i mean the elites that led the charge knowing they would be protected - the voters were lied to and conned all the way through, again proven beyond even worth commenting on.
6. see 3

2, That’s two people, high profile maybe, have they changed their mind on Brexit? Do they speak for 17,410,742 people? Did every one who voted for the ‘Remain’ parties vote solely on the Brexit issue? I didn’t so, anecdotally, and I know someone who prefers to use anecdotes to facts, most voters didn’t.
3, Again, your opinion. I’ll face it when it is proven. Is economy the sole measure of benefit?
4, I think the SNP and Plaid Cymru have more of a say on that than ye or me. I think they have been in existence since before 2016. Also, Wales voted 52.5% to leave so why would Brexit be a cause for them ceding from the union?
5, Your words were, “The elite few want it”. The majority of those that voted want it and the majority of those can, in no way, be described as elite. Will you ever accept the Remain side lied also? And “lets face it” the majority of the ‘elites’ at the time were on the lying, scaremongering, remain side.
1, Death rates have been below the five-year average for six weeks. The average death rates you often refer to, have been rising steadily since an all time low in 2008. And the UN expected the trend to continue. There had been a blip in 2018 /2019. I accept, obviously, that covid has added to expected deaths.
They aren’t “vague” factors. There are factors such as the density of the population and their propensity to live in close urban settlements. The starting point of the general health of the population has to be factored in. Is it just coincidence that Belgium has one of the highest density of population in the Western World (976 per sqr mile) and one of the most unhealthy (ranked 28th ) and they have the highest deaths per million.  The makeup and cultural habits of the populous. Despite what restrictions a government may put in place it depends on the willingness of the people to comply with them. I think we can safely say there have been a goodly number of illegal Rave attending, sweatshop owning, tombstoning, beach cramming, street partying, pub lock-in louts who have selfishly ignored all advice.
Our Mortality / Risk rate is also one of the worst but it is only just over 2% above Sweden’s.
Figures are tragic but it’s too simplistic to say we’ve had 61,000 excess deaths and it is all down to one factor. So I think it is fair to question and my paradigms are not vague.
            deaths per  mill     Density per mile2       Mortality Rate /risk    Healthiest pop.  rank                                                                                                                           
Belgium    865.4                          976                               14.%                     28
U.K.         699.7                           710                               14.9%                   19
Spain       611.7                            241                              12.2%                     1
Italy         582.7                           518                              14%                        2
Sweden    566.6                              60                              12.6%                    6
USA         502                                 87                               3.2%                   35
Brazil       485.7                              64                                3.3%

---

I imagine other party’s would given the intel have locked down earlier. It was obvious what was going to hit us when when we had an oven ready example in Italy to learn from.

I imagine other party leaders wouldn’t have not attended Cobra meetings on the brink of a pandemic

I imagine other party’s would have not abandoned track and trace in March only to give dubious contracts to various inappropriate companies

All nothing more than supposition. Still that's what you base all your anti Brexit rhetoric on. 
Imagination is a wonderful thing.

[Protheroe]

No hindsight we had a perfect example of what was going to happen in Italy and many including leading experts said an earlier lockdown was needed. We were advised to test, test, test and we abandoned this strategy in March, the less said about the World Class Track and Trace system the better. So don’t pretend this is hindsight. Nice Boris Johnson tactic of playing to galleries with silly name calling. Fair weather Tory

Name one leading expert without a poltical axe to grind who said we should be locking down *before* we locked down. This is all hindsight.

[baggy1]

1, This has led to one of the worst death rates in the world, 

1, Death rates have been below the five-year average for six weeks. The average death rates you often refer to, have been rising steadily since an all time low in 2008. And the UN expected the trend to continue. There had been a blip in 2018 /2019. I accept, obviously, that covid has added to expected deaths.
They aren’t “vague” factors. There are factors such as the density of the population and their propensity to live in close urban settlements. The starting point of the general health of the population has to be factored in. Is it just coincidence that Belgium has one of the highest density of population in the Western World (976 per sqr mile) and one of the most unhealthy (ranked 28th ) and they have the highest deaths per million.  The makeup and cultural habits of the populous. Despite what restrictions a government may put in place it depends on the willingness of the people to comply with them. I think we can safely say there have been a goodly number of illegal Rave attending, sweatshop owning, tombstoning, beach cramming, street partying, pub lock-in louts who have selfishly ignored all advice.
Our Mortality / Risk rate is also one of the worst but it is only just over 2% above Sweden’s.
Figures are tragic but it’s too simplistic to say we’ve had 61,000 excess deaths and it is all down to one factor. So I think it is fair to question and my paradigms are not vague.
            deaths per  mill     Density per mile2       Mortality Rate /risk    Healthiest pop.  rank                                                                                                                           
Belgium    865.4                          976                               14.%                     28
U.K.         699.7                           710                               14.9%                   19
Spain       611.7                            241                              12.2%                     1
Italy         582.7                           518                              14%                        2
Sweden    566.6                              60                              12.6%                    6
USA         502                                 87                               3.2%                   35
Brazil       485.7                              64                                3.3%

---

I rarely get pissed of with you JOK but when you show crass stupidity to defend a point that is indefensible I do take offence. Right lets deal with your facebook quoted bullshit on this issue - you may have noticed I've been paying a lot of attention to it and have been posting the facts rather than some one-eyed bollox. People have died here through Johnson's inability to govern - please stop defending the indefensible.

Death rates have been below the 5 year average for 7 weeks now not 6 (up to the 31st July data available) but the total for those 7 weeks is 1,503 for England and Wales. In order to bring that down to the average (in E&W) we will need nearly another 5 years of that figure. Not exactly time to run the flags up celebrating. The actual figures per week have been in the 5 year range and below the average for the 5 years. 

You then go on to talk of density of population and propensity to live in close urban settlements and then you go on to compare us with Sweden who have a 6th of our population in 6 times the space with the one city they have being of 1m - that in itself is stupid. 

And 'it's too simplistic to say it's all down to one factor" is another load of crap - without covid none of the other factors would have come into play so it is fair to say that the excess deaths are al as a result of covid and the only other factor being the governments handling of it - locking people away too late and for too long, closing hospitals when they used flagships that they couldn't staff because of understaffing of the last decade, sending vulnerable old folk into more vulnerable settings where the disease is more prevalent. They are fucking morons and you defending them is even worse.

And back to my original point that you could have just agreed with "This has led to one of the worst death rates in the world" - that is simply undeniable.

[baggy1]

No hindsight we had a perfect example of what was going to happen in Italy and many including leading experts said an earlier lockdown was needed. We were advised to test, test, test and we abandoned this strategy in March, the less said about the World Class Track and Trace system the better. So don’t pretend this is hindsight. Nice Boris Johnson tactic of playing to galleries with silly name calling. Fair weather Tory

Name one leading expert without a poltical axe to grind who said we should be locking down *before* we locked down. This is all hindsight.

Not hindsight at all - everybody was talking at the time the Cheltenham was madness, my lad goes every year and we told him not to this year because of this very thing.

And Johnson was running around saying don't worry I've been shaking everyones hand - why would he even have said that if contact like that hadn't been questioned

If the general public knew then the government knew and just because it didn't suit agenda's of profit margins doesn't change that fact.

[Derek Hardballs]

1, This has led to one of the worst death rates in the world, 
2, even the Brexiteers are having second thoughts about at least the timing of it...
3, fuck the economy,
4, fuck the union.
5, fuck the people because the elite few want it delivered.

6, We are sacrificing our futures here for an ideological dream / nightmare.

1, Second in deaths per million, true. (at time of writing) It is not as straight forward as that. (As I'm certain you know but still, let's not spoil a good sound bite) There are other factors which should be taken into the equation. 
2, Are they. What percentage? Who? Try not to mention Davies' criticism of the, as yet, un settled deal.
3, Yet to be known.
4, The Union (if you mean the U.K.) was fracturing anyway. 
5, You mean the majority of those that voted? The majority of Labour voting, working class areas. Those "Elite few" you mean? 
6, Your opinion. As with no.2, yet to be proven.

1. 61k excess deaths in a population of 60 million is far from a sound bite, I'm surprised you even question that one with a vague 'other factors' comment. It was simple, pay attention, turn up to meetings, lock down earlier i think we are well past that argument.
2. Davies and IDS were the leaders of the movement who are questioning it, the remain voting parties polled more than the leave parties in the election but don't let that get in the way of a good vagueness.
3. We're fucked face it
4. oh well that's ok, lets fuck it completely
5. No i mean the elites that led the charge knowing they would be protected - the voters were lied to and conned all the way through, again proven beyond even worth commenting on.
6. see 3

2, That’s two people, high profile maybe, have they changed their mind on Brexit? Do they speak for 17,410,742 people? Did every one who voted for the ‘Remain’ parties vote solely on the Brexit issue? I didn’t so, anecdotally, and I know someone who prefers to use anecdotes to facts, most voters didn’t.
3, Again, your opinion. I’ll face it when it is proven. Is economy the sole measure of benefit?
4, I think the SNP and Plaid Cymru have more of a say on that than ye or me. I think they have been in existence since before 2016. Also, Wales voted 52.5% to leave so why would Brexit be a cause for them ceding from the union?
5, Your words were, “The elite few want it”. The majority of those that voted want it and the majority of those can, in no way, be described as elite. Will you ever accept the Remain side lied also? And “lets face it” the majority of the ‘elites’ at the time were on the lying, scaremongering, remain side.
1, Death rates have been below the five-year average for six weeks. The average death rates you often refer to, have been rising steadily since an all time low in 2008. And the UN expected the trend to continue. There had been a blip in 2018 /2019. I accept, obviously, that covid has added to expected deaths.
They aren’t “vague” factors. There are factors such as the density of the population and their propensity to live in close urban settlements. The starting point of the general health of the population has to be factored in. Is it just coincidence that Belgium has one of the highest density of population in the Western World (976 per sqr mile) and one of the most unhealthy (ranked 28th ) and they have the highest deaths per million.  The makeup and cultural habits of the populous. Despite what restrictions a government may put in place it depends on the willingness of the people to comply with them. I think we can safely say there have been a goodly number of illegal Rave attending, sweatshop owning, tombstoning, beach cramming, street partying, pub lock-in louts who have selfishly ignored all advice.
Our Mortality / Risk rate is also one of the worst but it is only just over 2% above Sweden’s.
Figures are tragic but it’s too simplistic to say we’ve had 61,000 excess deaths and it is all down to one factor. So I think it is fair to question and my paradigms are not vague.
            deaths per  mill     Density per mile2       Mortality Rate /risk    Healthiest pop.  rank                                                                                                                           
Belgium    865.4                          976                               14.%                     28
U.K.         699.7                           710                               14.9%                   19
Spain       611.7                            241                              12.2%                     1
Italy         582.7                           518                              14%                        2
Sweden    566.6                              60                              12.6%                    6
USA         502                                 87                               3.2%                   35
Brazil       485.7                              64                                3.3%

---

I imagine other party’s would given the intel have locked down earlier. It was obvious what was going to hit us when when we had an oven ready example in Italy to learn from.

I imagine other party leaders wouldn’t have not attended Cobra meetings on the brink of a pandemic

I imagine other party’s would have not abandoned track and trace in March only to give dubious contracts to various inappropriate companies

All nothing more than supposition. Still that's what you base all your anti Brexit rhetoric on. 
Imagination is a wonderful thing.

Whoah... a Brexiteer criticising someone for believing / surmising something may be better. 

[JOK]

1, This has led to one of the worst death rates in the world, 

1, Death rates have been below the five-year average for six weeks. The average death rates you often refer to, have been rising steadily since an all time low in 2008. And the UN expected the trend to continue. There had been a blip in 2018 /2019. I accept, obviously, that covid has added to expected deaths.
They aren’t “vague” factors. There are factors such as the density of the population and their propensity to live in close urban settlements. The starting point of the general health of the population has to be factored in. Is it just coincidence that Belgium has one of the highest density of population in the Western World (976 per sqr mile) and one of the most unhealthy (ranked 28th ) and they have the highest deaths per million.  The makeup and cultural habits of the populous. Despite what restrictions a government may put in place it depends on the willingness of the people to comply with them. I think we can safely say there have been a goodly number of illegal Rave attending, sweatshop owning, tombstoning, beach cramming, street partying, pub lock-in louts who have selfishly ignored all advice.
Our Mortality / Risk rate is also one of the worst but it is only just over 2% above Sweden’s.
Figures are tragic but it’s too simplistic to say we’ve had 61,000 excess deaths and it is all down to one factor. So I think it is fair to question and my paradigms are not vague.
            deaths per  mill     Density per mile2       Mortality Rate /risk    Healthiest pop.  rank                                                                                                                           
Belgium    865.4                          976                               14.%                     28
U.K.         699.7                           710                               14.9%                   19
Spain       611.7                            241                              12.2%                     1
Italy         582.7                           518                              14%                        2
Sweden    566.6                              60                              12.6%                    6
USA         502                                 87                               3.2%                   35
Brazil       485.7                              64                                3.3%

---

I rarely get pissed of with you JOK but when you show crass stupidity to defend a point that is indefensible I do take offence. Right lets deal with your facebook quoted bullshit on this issue - you may have noticed I've been paying a lot of attention to it and have been posting the facts rather than some one-eyed bollox. People have died here through Johnson's inability to govern - please stop defending the indefensible.

Death rates have been below the 5 year average for 7 weeks now not 6 (up to the 31st July data available) but the total for those 7 weeks is 1,503 for England and Wales. In order to bring that down to the average (in E&W) we will need nearly another 5 years of that figure. Not exactly time to run the flags up celebrating. The actual figures per week have been in the 5 year range and below the average for the 5 years. 

You then go on to talk of density of population and propensity to live in close urban settlements and then you go on to compare us with Sweden who have a 6th of our population in 6 times the space with the one city they have being of 1m - that in itself is stupid. 

And 'it's too simplistic to say it's all down to one factor" is another load of crap - without covid none of the other factors would have come into play so it is fair to say that the excess deaths are al as a result of covid and the only other factor being the governments handling of it - locking people away too late and for too long, closing hospitals when they used flagships that they couldn't staff because of understaffing of the last decade, sending vulnerable old folk into more vulnerable settings where the disease is more prevalent. They are fucking morons and you defending them is even worse.

And back to my original point that you could have just agreed with "This has led to one of the worst death rates in the world" - that is simply undeniable.

I don't see any need to get p'eed off with me. I'm not defending Johnson or anybody. However accusing someone of "crass stupidity" simply for taking a differing view and believing the causes are more complex than just looking at a figure and ascribing one simple reason for it is indefensibly offensive. Sorry if it offends but I will continue to wait for the longer term findings before fixing my view. 
What does "Facebook quoted bull shit mean? More unnecessary offensiveness. I think I have shown many times MY views are not determined by social meedya morons!
Obviously the other factors wouldn't be in play if not for Covid.  But we are talking about Covid. Are you saying  the transmission of the virus is not affected by close proximity of the populous ? The general health of the population isn't going to effect outcomes?  So crowds ignoring social distancing has no effect? If that is the case why all the angst about Cheltenham and Anfield?  

You have answered my point about Sweden. That is exactly the point. They have a far wider spread population it is also ranked far healthier than the U.K. and Belgium but its percentage of deaths to cases is not that much better. (difference in how figures are measured accepted) 
I think I acknowledged the U.K. has the second highest death rates in the world. So far. So didn't deny that. 
I will not apologise for taking a longer term analytical view of momentous times. I will always let cold, factual history fashion my eventual opinion.
Finally, I have always considered you a fair and respectful poster, prepared to debate civilly. I'm afraid you have shown that your pathological hatred of one set of characters and your totally dismissive response means I may have to change my view.

[baggy1]

The reason Sweden is only just a bit better than us is because they went for herd immunity and didn’t lockdown, otherwise they would have been comparable with a similar sized and densely populated country like New Zealand.

Fuck me, it was only a month or so ago that the nay sayers were holding them up as the poster boy of not locking down, now you’re using them to compare with us. Imagine what would have happened if we’d followed their model and not locked down.

I really do take offence at the stupidity of people looking for other reasons in the middle of the worlds worst pandemic for a century. This covid is indiscriminate and deadly. It will, and does, impact more with underlying conditions but that doesn’t mean it won’t hit fit and healthy people.

This is a deadly virus, our leaders didn’t take it seriously enough and that is why we are one of the worst in the world, we have no more obese people than Germany but they handled it better and are better off than us. Comments like we’ve had 6 weeks at less than the average is, at best, misleading and at worst moronic because when enough people say that it becomes - well it’s over isn’t it.

Change your view all you like, on this subject there isn’t a debate. This kills. Playing it down or bringing in other factors to muddy the waters will only give those that are looking for it an excuse to forget about it -simply put the thin end of the wedge.

And back to the point I raised to start with Johnson fucked up in virtually every possible way on this and in normal circumstances he would be dragged over the coals. Instead we get people like yourself who will try and defend with ‘well, it’s not just his fault, there are other factors’, that’s when you’re lost when you can’t see that no matter what with better leadership we would have been in a better place now.