This bloody country...

[Duffers]

How many people have asked for the statue to come down and the hall to be renamed though? I would imagine in a city of half a million, probably only a few hundred. Most probably walk past and don`t give it a second thought. Slavery was obviously abhorrent, yes, this country profited, but was also the first to abolish it, and, use our naval power to stop slavery.
As for us having the largest unarmed Police Force, yes, on the face of it. My wifes relative was a Police officer for 30 years, he reckons there are far more armed Police than we realise, not just the ones at airports. The way things are going now, guns, knives etc, this may have to change. On my local estate, a bloke and his wife run a small shop selling greetings cards, balloons etc. He told me that one evening , 5 or 6 teenagers were outside, being obnoxious and started throwing stones at his windows. The Police came, 2 0fficers, and told these 15 / 16 year olds to clear off, go home etc. The kids told the Police to clear off,or they would kick their heads in.

Actually, it's been an ongoing campaign for at least 20 years that I know of, so a fair few more than a few hundred.

But is that really the point? If it's wrong, it's wrong and shouldn't be celebrated

Yes the country did profit, but I would argue that not all of it's citizens did. Only a few did, there was little taxation, so much of the wealth was kept in the hands of a few. Most of us were living in squalour.

Like most countries, we have a glorious and inglorious history. After the US, 'we' made the most money out of slavery. That's obviously bad, but you're right, in a way, it should make us even more proud that we were one of the first to abolish slavery (not the first) and we were one of the first to abolish the transport of slaves (again not the first). We did police the seas, but like the US now, it wasn't for totally altruistic reasons.

So would you be happy if we replaced the names and statues of slavers with anti-slavery advocates? Even less politically charged, what about replacing them with other great men or women from this country who had nothing to do with racial issues, but who furthered the development of the human race? We've 'spawned' plenty of them, maybe even more than most. Surely that would be better if national pride was important? It would seem like a win-win to me.

Good argument, I agree.

Who gave the mob authority to remove the statue?

The council did when they ignored all the campaigns to remove it.

Oh, so a campaign has an enforceable legal action does it??

If that's the case I'm going to campaign for the removal of West Bromwich from the United Kingdom, but I don't expect anything to happen about it.

Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Nelson Mandela, the Suffragettes, Ghandi... all examples of individuals committing acts considered against the law that ultimately served a greater good. Now before anyone jumps on me I am not comparing the folk in Bristol to these figures but highlighting that good can come from civil disobedience.

It boils down to where your moral compass points. For me, the symbolic act of tearing down a monument to shameful and racist past is more important than the laws broken to achieve it. I accept others may feel differently.

[Kit Kat Chunky]

Good argument, I agree.

Who gave the mob authority to remove the statue?

The council did when they ignored all the campaigns to remove it.

What will be more interesting is who will want to put it back up again? In a way, that in itself 'almost' justifies tearing it down.

It shouldn't go back up, in my opinion.

But whatever happens it needs to be decided in a lawful way, not because an out of control mob decided upon itself to take the law into it's own hands.

What next, vigilantes? Summary execution by the mob for walking on the cracks in the pavement?

We have to have law enforcement otherwise we end up with anarchy and civil war. And I'm no apologist for the Police, far from it. But someone has to enforce the law.

I think you're being a little harsh in your criticism of Tory Councillor Richard Eddy and the Society of Merchant Venturers ...

I was going to make a post on the relative merits of both peaceful and violent direct action, forms of protest I personally have participated in; but instead I'm going to reflect on the fact that a poster on this thread has advocated the army shooting his/her fellow citizens.  Wow.

What would have happened if the tumbling statue had crushed someone?? 

HASAW would have had a field day!!

[ChamonixBaggie]

When do "the people" (in whose name elected officials are supposed to act) become "a mob"? is it when they're doing something you don't like?

"and now you do what they told ya" - Z. De La Rocha

[rsbaggy2]

The council did when they ignored all the campaigns to remove it.

What will be more interesting is who will want to put it back up again? In a way, that in itself 'almost' justifies tearing it down.

It shouldn't go back up, in my opinion.

But whatever happens it needs to be decided in a lawful way, not because an out of control mob decided upon itself to take the law into it's own hands.

What next, vigilantes? Summary execution by the mob for walking on the cracks in the pavement?

We have to have law enforcement otherwise we end up with anarchy and civil war. And I'm no apologist for the Police, far from it. But someone has to enforce the law.

I think you're being a little harsh in your criticism of Tory Councillor Richard Eddy and the Society of Merchant Venturers ...

I was going to make a post on the relative merits of both peaceful and violent direct action, forms of protest I personally have participated in; but instead I'm going to reflect on the fact that a poster on this thread has advocated the army shooting his/her fellow citizens.  Wow.

What would have happened if the tumbling statue had crushed someone?? 

HASAW would have had a field day!!

I suggest it would do a lot less physical harm than allowing the police to fire bullets at a protest march.

[fuzzbox]

I'm all for the rule of law, but it's a strange one though, isn't it?

Most people agree it shouldn't be there. Nobody has suggested it should go back up (yet)

So the argument is actually about whether you're allowed to ignore an unjust law? It reminds me of law school. Yet I don't remember people getting so passionate about it it then. I wonder what's so different about this particular protest?

Surely what's more important is why there was a statue up that most people don't care about, but if they did wouldn't want. The moral argument had been won, pressure had been applied for DECADES, yet the authorities did nothing! Without being big-headed, I reckon I could have sorted that out in about 5 minutes and with very little fuss. I may even have been able to spin a bit of PR out of it and a bit of cash for the council! So why didn't they?

Then this whole argument would be irrelevant and could have stayed in a law school where it belongs.

I'm not sure how you can just blame the protesters for this.

[albion_pigeon]

People have asked for years for the Colston statue to come down and for Colston hall to be renamed. I recall reading in the NME about renaming the latter back in the 90s.

As for the comments about violence against protesters, I am baffled as to why you would want such a thing. We are the largest country on earth (by population) to have an unarmed police force (NI excepted) and that is something we should be very proud of.

How many people have asked for the statue to come down and the hall to be renamed though? I would imagine in a city of half a million, probably only a few hundred. Most probably walk past and don`t give it a second thought. Slavery was obviously abhorrent, yes, this country profited, but was also the first to abolish it, and, use our naval power to stop slavery.
As for us having the largest unarmed Police Force, yes, on the face of it. My wifes relative was a Police officer for 30 years, he reckons there are far more armed Police than we realise, not just the ones at airports. The way things are going now, guns, knives etc, this may have to change. On my local estate, a bloke and his wife run a small shop selling greetings cards, balloons etc. He told me that one evening , 5 or 6 teenagers were outside, being obnoxious and started throwing stones at his windows. The Police came, 2 0fficers, and told these 15 / 16 year olds to clear off, go home etc. The kids told the Police to clear off,or they would kick their heads in.

Now nobody's saying the Chatsworth Estate's the Garden of Eden, but it's been a good home to us, to me - Frank Gallagher.

[Baggiejacko]

You can't even sit in your pants watching a film eating pringles with a few cans these days. Asda manager was livid and called the police ffs.

[Remi_Moses]

Let me just clarify something before mass hysteria sets in. I never mentioned shooting anyone. Being armed and shooting are different things. 
Ramming a bicycle into a police horse causing injuries to many people is acceptable as is mass demonstrations putting thousands of people in danger of getting the Covid virus. 
I do not agree with this on any level.

[fuzzbox]

Let me just clarify something before mass hysteria sets in. I never mentioned shooting anyone. Being armed and shooting are different things. 
Ramming a bicycle into a police horse causing injuries to many people is acceptable as is mass demonstrations putting thousands of people in danger of getting the Covid virus. 
I do not agree with this on any level.

Just to clarify further. Are you saying give them a gun, but tell them not to shoot? I think that's fair enough. What could possibly go wrong?

[BeijingBaggie]

That hose pipe ban eh?