This bloody country...

[fuzzbox]

Good argument, I agree.

Who gave the mob authority to remove the statue?

The council did when they ignored all the campaigns to remove it.

What will be more interesting is who will want to put it back up again? In a way, that in itself 'almost' justifies tearing it down.

[Ministry Of Silly Signings]

People have asked for years for the Colston statue to come down and for Colston hall to be renamed. I recall reading in the NME about renaming the latter back in the 90s.

As for the comments about violence against protesters, I am baffled as to why you would want such a thing. We are the largest country on earth (by population) to have an unarmed police force (NI excepted) and that is something we should be very proud of.

How many people have asked for the statue to come down and the hall to be renamed though? I would imagine in a city of half a million, probably only a few hundred. Most probably walk past and don`t give it a second thought. Slavery was obviously abhorrent, yes, this country profited, but was also the first to abolish it, and, use our naval power to stop slavery.
As for us having the largest unarmed Police Force, yes, on the face of it. My wifes relative was a Police officer for 30 years, he reckons there are far more armed Police than we realise, not just the ones at airports. The way things are going now, guns, knives etc, this may have to change. On my local estate, a bloke and his wife run a small shop selling greetings cards, balloons etc. He told me that one evening , 5 or 6 teenagers were outside, being obnoxious and started throwing stones at his windows. The Police came, 2 0fficers, and told these 15 / 16 year olds to clear off, go home etc. The kids told the Police to clear off,or they would kick their heads in.

Actually, it's been an ongoing campaign for at least 20 years that I know of, so a fair few more than a few hundred.

But is that really the point? If it's wrong, it's wrong and shouldn't be celebrated

Yes the country did profit, but I would argue that not all of it's citizens did. Only a few did, there was little taxation, so much of the wealth was kept in the hands of a few. Most of us were living in squalour.

Like most countries, we have a glorious and inglorious history. After the US, 'we' made the most money out of slavery. That's obviously bad, but you're right, in a way, it should make us even more proud that we were one of the first to abolish slavery (not the first) and we were one of the first to abolish the transport of slaves (again not the first). We did police the seas, but like the US now, it wasn't for totally altruistic reasons.

So would you be happy if we replaced the names and statues of slavers with anti-slavery advocates? Even less politically charged, what about replacing them with other great men or women from this country who had nothing to do with racial issues, but who furthered the development of the human race? We've 'spawned' plenty of them, maybe even more than most. Surely that would be better if national pride was important? It would seem like a win-win to me.

Would be happy to have memorials to anti-slavers,wouldn`t bother me either way. In the U.S they have a massive memorial to Abraham Lincoln, who freed the slaves, but also owned some, apparently. Several Southern states have memorials to Robert E. Lee, owned 4 slaves but is largely remembered as a superb General, and was offered the command of the Union army.
I think, personally, we should remember that, 200 years ago, things were different, the human race has progressed. In those days didn`t church leaders bless slaves being transported to the Americas?, and make money off it.
Incidentally, don`t know what you think, but, several years ago, there was an idea in Germany to make a small memorial to scientists at Peenemunde, who, from small, guided V 1 rockets, eventually helped put men on the moon. This was stopped, after loud protests in this country about `doodlebugs` etc, the German government backed down, stopped the memorial. The RAF had a Tornado display aircraft commerating the `Dambusters`.Brilliant to have this debate withn you, BTW.

[Kit Kat Chunky]

People have asked for years for the Colston statue to come down and for Colston hall to be renamed. I recall reading in the NME about renaming the latter back in the 90s.

As for the comments about violence against protesters, I am baffled as to why you would want such a thing. We are the largest country on earth (by population) to have an unarmed police force (NI excepted) and that is something we should be very proud of.

How many people have asked for the statue to come down and the hall to be renamed though? I would imagine in a city of half a million, probably only a few hundred. Most probably walk past and don`t give it a second thought. Slavery was obviously abhorrent, yes, this country profited, but was also the first to abolish it, and, use our naval power to stop slavery.
As for us having the largest unarmed Police Force, yes, on the face of it. My wifes relative was a Police officer for 30 years, he reckons there are far more armed Police than we realise, not just the ones at airports. The way things are going now, guns, knives etc, this may have to change. On my local estate, a bloke and his wife run a small shop selling greetings cards, balloons etc. He told me that one evening , 5 or 6 teenagers were outside, being obnoxious and started throwing stones at his windows. The Police came, 2 0fficers, and told these 15 / 16 year olds to clear off, go home etc. The kids told the Police to clear off,or they would kick their heads in.

Actually, it's been an ongoing campaign for at least 20 years that I know of, so a fair few more than a few hundred.

But is that really the point? If it's wrong, it's wrong and shouldn't be celebrated

Yes the country did profit, but I would argue that not all of it's citizens did. Only a few did, there was little taxation, so much of the wealth was kept in the hands of a few. Most of us were living in squalour.

Like most countries, we have a glorious and inglorious history. After the US, 'we' made the most money out of slavery. That's obviously bad, but you're right, in a way, it should make us even more proud that we were one of the first to abolish slavery (not the first) and we were one of the first to abolish the transport of slaves (again not the first). We did police the seas, but like the US now, it wasn't for totally altruistic reasons.

So would you be happy if we replaced the names and statues of slavers with anti-slavery advocates? Even less politically charged, what about replacing them with other great men or women from this country who had nothing to do with racial issues, but who furthered the development of the human race? We've 'spawned' plenty of them, maybe even more than most. Surely that would be better if national pride was important? It would seem like a win-win to me.

Good argument, I agree.

Who gave the mob authority to remove the statue?

The council did when they ignored all the campaigns to remove it.

Oh, so a campaign has an enforceable legal action does it??

If that's the case I'm going to campaign for the removal of West Bromwich from the United Kingdom, but I don't expect anything to happen about it.

[Remi_Moses]

Surely it's not the removal of the statue, it's what's it represents that's important. Florence Nightingale would be an excellent replacement IMO as a rememberance of Nurses and the emergency hospitals we built.

[Kit Kat Chunky]

Good argument, I agree.

Who gave the mob authority to remove the statue?

The council did when they ignored all the campaigns to remove it.

What will be more interesting is who will want to put it back up again? In a way, that in itself 'almost' justifies tearing it down.

It shouldn't go back up, in my opinion.

But whatever happens it needs to be decided in a lawful way, not because an out of control mob decided upon itself to take the law into it's own hands.

What next, vigilantes? Summary execution by the mob for walking on the cracks in the pavement?

We have to have law enforcement otherwise we end up with anarchy and civil war. And I'm no apologist for the Police, far from it. But someone has to enforce the law.

[Remi_Moses]

Good argument, I agree.

Who gave the mob authority to remove the statue?

The council did when they ignored all the campaigns to remove it.

What will be more interesting is who will want to put it back up again? In a way, that in itself 'almost' justifies tearing it down.

It shouldn't go back up, in my opinion.

But whatever happens it needs to be decided in a lawful way, not because an out of control mob decided upon itself to take the law into it's own hands.

What next, vigilantes? Summary execution by the mob for walking on the cracks in the pavement?

We have to have law enforcement otherwise we end up with anarchy and civil war. And I'm no apologist for the Police, far from it. But someone has to enforce the law.

Absolutely

---

Good argument, I agree.

Who gave the mob authority to remove the statue?

The council did when they ignored all the campaigns to remove it.

What will be more interesting is who will want to put it back up again? In a way, that in itself 'almost' justifies tearing it down.

It shouldn't go back up, in my opinion.

But whatever happens it needs to be decided in a lawful way, not because an out of control mob decided upon itself to take the law into it's own hands.

What next, vigilantes? Summary execution by the mob for walking on the cracks in the pavement?

We have to have law enforcement otherwise we end up with anarchy and civil war. And I'm no apologist for the Police, far from it. But someone has to enforce the law.

Absolutely

[Duffers]

Surely it's not the removal of the statue, it's what's it represents that's important. Florence Nightingale would be an excellent replacement IMO as a rememberance of Nurses and the emergency hospitals we built.

You were advocating shooting the people removing it!

[Kit Kat Chunky]

Surely it's not the removal of the statue, it's what's it represents that's important. Florence Nightingale would be an excellent replacement IMO as a rememberance of Nurses and the emergency hospitals we built.

You were advocating shooting the people removing it!

Now we are making some progress

[baggy1]

It shouldn't go back up, in my opinion.

But whatever happens it needs to be decided in a lawful way, not because an out of control mob decided upon itself to take the law into it's own hands.

What next, vigilantes? Summary execution by the mob for walking on the cracks in the pavement?

We have to have law enforcement otherwise we end up with anarchy and civil war. And I'm no apologist for the Police, far from it. But someone has to enforce the law.

And the Police will decide, using their discretion, on how to react. They don't need people shouting "shoot the bastards, they're breaking the law!!". They also won't shoot drivers for speeding which is another law being broken. In this case they will probably look at the options and decide no-one was hurt, no-one is really offended apart from the offendati, let it go.

However, on the other side of the coin, people / officers were hurt in London and they will probably take action against the perpetrators. They have used discretion wisely.

And going back to the statue, I would hope this is the only case of 'statue demonstrations' out there but taking everything into context with the history of that particular statue, I would say it's not a bad thing it's gone and they've saving the council a whole heap of money in taking it down.

[WWHO]

Good argument, I agree.

Who gave the mob authority to remove the statue?

The council did when they ignored all the campaigns to remove it.

What will be more interesting is who will want to put it back up again? In a way, that in itself 'almost' justifies tearing it down.

It shouldn't go back up, in my opinion.

But whatever happens it needs to be decided in a lawful way, not because an out of control mob decided upon itself to take the law into it's own hands.

What next, vigilantes? Summary execution by the mob for walking on the cracks in the pavement?

We have to have law enforcement otherwise we end up with anarchy and civil war. And I'm no apologist for the Police, far from it. But someone has to enforce the law.

I think you're being a little harsh in your criticism of Tory Councillor Richard Eddy and the Society of Merchant Venturers ...

I was going to make a post on the relative merits of both peaceful and violent direct action, forms of protest I personally have participated in; but instead I'm going to reflect on the fact that a poster on this thread has advocated the army shooting his/her fellow citizens. Wow.