Brexit Party

[Sotv]

You won't have to wait long to find out to be fair.

said with the glee of someone who would delight in others losing their jobs just so they could be seen to be right to a total stranger on the internet.
Meanwhile you're unable to answer Malc's question so resorts to the Derekesque technique of answering a question with a question.

Piss off with your glee comment - I'm one of those that can see the risks in job losses because mine and my lad's are in that category. I'm also one of those that could see the risks of job losses and the extra work involved for those of us that work for global organisations, which is why I was so against it in the first place. I am interested in the truth coming out slowly and surely with various cabinet members preparing us for the blows we are about to receive and the hidden agenda. 

Malcs question seemed to suggest I had said that wasn't the case, my point is that it wasn't brought to the table in an objective debate showing all of the outcomes by the politicians, they just made out it would be great (without any detail of course) so that they could get their agenda and personal business interests pushed through.

Do you think people would have been so keen to vote to pay more for their goods, run the risk of job losses, and generally be worse off for a generation, or do you think they voted to get £350m pounds a week back into the NHS and regain our waters fishing rights.

no i wont piss off with it, it's been a recurrent theme amongst so many of the oh so smart remainers and now you don't like leavers calling you out on it. Your opening comment about risks shows that what concerns you is rooted in fear and to an extent, selfish personal reasons.

People were warned of potential job losses, the economy crashing immediately upon a vote to leave (which it didnt, it actually outperfromed most european countries economies so then you shift the goalposts and say oh we meant after we leave) and more besides. That's why the remain campaign was labelled project fear. 

No, they didn't vote to get back £350 million into the NHS, thats just another attempt at pointing a finger and laughing "thick brexiteers" and it's become almost as tiresome as the refrain of "you're all racists" your side has subjected us to over the last few years. 

As it is, you dont know if we will end up paying more for goods, be worse off for a generation etc and no one will until a trade deal has been struck. Yeah you will quote your economic experts, the same experts who totally missed the 2008 crash. 

FWIW i voted to leave as i was sick of hearing politicians in the country keep blaming the EU for things and i wanted to remove that excuse, add to that my belief in small government and representation being as local possible. 

I was also very uncomfortable with how the EU had morphed from a trade block into what is rapidly becoming a superstate. What also clinched it for me was the shrill, know it all attitude, the self righteous tone of remainers and the name calling. Unfortunately, many seem as capable of learning from this as momentum and the assorted leftards who supported Corbyn.

Ok let’s go through things one by one...

We haven’t left yet and when we do when will we see any benefits and what will they be? It’s been three and a bit tedious years of needless and arguably pointless upheaval, billions spent and for what? 

You want a small state which would mean what exactly? What gets cut?

Health 
Disability support
Roads 
The Arts
The Royal Family
Social Housing
Policing
Education 
Armed Forces
There are lots more areas I’ve forgotten

What happens to those at the sharp end of those cuts / shrinkage of the state? 

Our own politicians told the lie that it was simply a trading block not the architects of the EU they made it abundantly clear at the time that it was both a monetary and political idea. From the very beginning those bemoaning the lack of sovereignty / democracy / accountability blamed those pesky Europeans not their own sovereign government. Easier to blame a shadowy perceived enemy than reality I suppose and nothing has changed.

Why couldn’t national government have invested in the towns and cities that felt they were left behind before Brexit? I’m generally interested in the thought process of voters whose areas have suffered for years through neglect think I know what will solve it! A period of financial uncertainty and belief in national government that has let them down time and time again.

Whilst you get angry and want to sock it to those shrill no it alls, many remainers get fed up with the lack of any credible plan, the lack of proper scrutiny of those advocating leaving, the dawn of populism and blatant lying and the jingoistic tendency of some of its biggest supporters. Have you seen the idiots trying to burn the EU regulated fire resistant flag?

Ah the old Dereck game of ignore the points raised by others, but instead spew out a load of loaded questions in an attempt to misdirect. Here is a classic example where you take a secondary point regarding smaller government but choose to ignore the major one regarding forcing responsibilty onto our own politicians, why is that?
You actually make my main point for me, the fact politicians had the opportunity to blame europe for not implementing something or forcing through unpopular rules. Now we are leaving, that trick is removed from them. 
A great deal of those things on your list could be provided by private companies. EG. for disability support you could give someone a budget that they or their carer are then free to spend with any provider. With various providers competing for the custom it would lead to a lowering of cost and improvement in service, thats how capitalism works. Here of course i mean proper capitalism, not the shonky crony captialism we usually see when big firms are invited to tender to provide exclusive services. Are you suggesting that these kind of services would be better supplied from Brussels seeing as you have now chosen to bring it up in a conversation about Brexit? 
Im also not sure why we should be spending tax payers money on the arts etc. If people wish to consume art then they should pay for it.  In short, the state should concentrate on providing security for its citizens ( the police and armed forces) and basic infrastructure. We certainly shouldn't be forcing tax payers to fund  the latest disabled, BAME, vegan spoken word performance with signing that wil be watched by a few Moseley based chin strokers. 
Its not down to government to invest in towns, thats the bit you seem to really struggle with. It's private companies that create true wealth, not tax funded arts projects etc. Tell me, how did it work out when the government owned the likes of British Leyland etc?
It's actually the mistrust of national governments that in part led to the Brexit vote. If you remember, Cameron and Osborne were none too keen on us leaving. 

Of course those architects of the EU were totally honest about their intentions when naming it the European ECONOMIC Community.
One of the founding fathers of the EU, Jean Monnet has been quoted as saying,
"Europe's nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by succesive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation"

So yes, you were really correct when you made the point about their honesty. 
The fact is there have been blatant lies told by remain, heres a few for you
 https://briefingsforbrexit.com/lies-lies...tatistics/

I'm not angry i leave that to people like yourself and your need to argue with anyone you can. I just find it amusing that people who consider themselves as liberals are acting in the most bigoted and illiberal manner because they haven't got their own way. 
And yes i have seen those idiots with the flag. I'm not really sure of the relevance here though, unless of course you are trying to extrapolate that all leavers are stupid based on the actions of a few people on youtube. Thats the same kind of thought process as racists by the way, tar the majority via the actions of a minority. Though if you wanted to play that game, have you seen the idiot who set up camp outside parliament for 3 years to moan?

[Malcolm Tucker]

Strangely not bitter or twisted but really enjoying it all becoming clear what a fuck up this will be. What was it Javid said the other day "Brexit... won't benefit all businesses", erm I thought this was going to be the golden uplands we are heading for.

Same here, which some on the leave side seem to find either frustrating or hard to accept. It's almost as if some of the most strident Brexiteers crave the validation of remainers changing their minds and telling them they were right all along. Could be a long wait.

They won the vote: they now need to lie in the bed they made; as, like it or not, do we all. Expecting people like you and me to start pretending it was a good idea all along is probably a bit unrealistic though.

Oh the hypocrisy of those who continue to moan and berate those with a differing opinion after the fact. 
It’s more we crave you accepting change and moving on to making things work, instead of doom mongering and magnifying any problem you find in order to say “told you so”.
We know the arrogance of many remainers is so strong they will never admit they were wrong so no point waiting for that

Who are 'we'?

The stupidest thing about the whole process is people and the media's willingness to polarise two indistinct groups of people and perpetuate the idea that they are some sort of mass with a fence in the middle.

Correct

[Derek Hardballs]

said with the glee of someone who would delight in others losing their jobs just so they could be seen to be right to a total stranger on the internet.
Meanwhile you're unable to answer Malc's question so resorts to the Derekesque technique of answering a question with a question.

Piss off with your glee comment - I'm one of those that can see the risks in job losses because mine and my lad's are in that category. I'm also one of those that could see the risks of job losses and the extra work involved for those of us that work for global organisations, which is why I was so against it in the first place. I am interested in the truth coming out slowly and surely with various cabinet members preparing us for the blows we are about to receive and the hidden agenda. 

Malcs question seemed to suggest I had said that wasn't the case, my point is that it wasn't brought to the table in an objective debate showing all of the outcomes by the politicians, they just made out it would be great (without any detail of course) so that they could get their agenda and personal business interests pushed through.

Do you think people would have been so keen to vote to pay more for their goods, run the risk of job losses, and generally be worse off for a generation, or do you think they voted to get £350m pounds a week back into the NHS and regain our waters fishing rights.

no i wont piss off with it, it's been a recurrent theme amongst so many of the oh so smart remainers and now you don't like leavers calling you out on it. Your opening comment about risks shows that what concerns you is rooted in fear and to an extent, selfish personal reasons.

People were warned of potential job losses, the economy crashing immediately upon a vote to leave (which it didnt, it actually outperfromed most european countries economies so then you shift the goalposts and say oh we meant after we leave) and more besides. That's why the remain campaign was labelled project fear. 

No, they didn't vote to get back £350 million into the NHS, thats just another attempt at pointing a finger and laughing "thick brexiteers" and it's become almost as tiresome as the refrain of "you're all racists" your side has subjected us to over the last few years. 

As it is, you dont know if we will end up paying more for goods, be worse off for a generation etc and no one will until a trade deal has been struck. Yeah you will quote your economic experts, the same experts who totally missed the 2008 crash. 

FWIW i voted to leave as i was sick of hearing politicians in the country keep blaming the EU for things and i wanted to remove that excuse, add to that my belief in small government and representation being as local possible. 

I was also very uncomfortable with how the EU had morphed from a trade block into what is rapidly becoming a superstate. What also clinched it for me was the shrill, know it all attitude, the self righteous tone of remainers and the name calling. Unfortunately, many seem as capable of learning from this as momentum and the assorted leftards who supported Corbyn.

Ok let’s go through things one by one...

We haven’t left yet and when we do when will we see any benefits and what will they be? It’s been three and a bit tedious years of needless and arguably pointless upheaval, billions spent and for what? 

You want a small state which would mean what exactly? What gets cut?

Health 
Disability support
Roads 
The Arts
The Royal Family
Social Housing
Policing
Education 
Armed Forces
There are lots more areas I’ve forgotten

What happens to those at the sharp end of those cuts / shrinkage of the state? 

Our own politicians told the lie that it was simply a trading block not the architects of the EU they made it abundantly clear at the time that it was both a monetary and political idea. From the very beginning those bemoaning the lack of sovereignty / democracy / accountability blamed those pesky Europeans not their own sovereign government. Easier to blame a shadowy perceived enemy than reality I suppose and nothing has changed.

Why couldn’t national government have invested in the towns and cities that felt they were left behind before Brexit? I’m generally interested in the thought process of voters whose areas have suffered for years through neglect think I know what will solve it! A period of financial uncertainty and belief in national government that has let them down time and time again.

Whilst you get angry and want to sock it to those shrill no it alls, many remainers get fed up with the lack of any credible plan, the lack of proper scrutiny of those advocating leaving, the dawn of populism and blatant lying and the jingoistic tendency of some of its biggest supporters. Have you seen the idiots trying to burn the EU regulated fire resistant flag?

Ah the old Dereck game of ignore the points raised by others, but instead spew out a load of loaded questions in an attempt to misdirect. Here is a classic example where you take a secondary point regarding smaller government but choose to ignore the major one regarding forcing responsibilty onto our own politicians, why is that?
You actually make my main point for me, the fact politicians had the opportunity to blame europe for not implementing something or forcing through unpopular rules. Now we are leaving, that trick is removed from them. 
A great deal of those things on your list could be provided by private companies. EG. for disability support you could give someone a budget that they or their carer are then free to spend with any provider. With various providers competing for the custom it would lead to a lowering of cost and improvement in service, thats how capitalism works. Here of course i mean proper capitalism, not the shonky crony captialism we usually see when big firms are invited to tender to provide exclusive services. Are you suggesting that these kind of services would be better supplied from Brussels seeing as you have now chosen to bring it up in a conversation about Brexit? 
Im also not sure why we should be spending tax payers money on the arts etc. If people wish to consume art then they should pay for it.  In short, the state should concentrate on providing security for its citizens ( the police and armed forces) and basic infrastructure. We certainly shouldn't be forcing tax payers to fund  the latest disabled, BAME, vegan spoken word performance with signing that wil be watched by a few Moseley based chin strokers. 
Its not down to government to invest in towns, thats the bit you seem to really struggle with. It's private companies that create true wealth, not tax funded arts projects etc. Tell me, how did it work out when the government owned the likes of British Leyland etc?
It's actually the mistrust of national governments that in part led to the Brexit vote. If you remember, Cameron and Osborne were none too keen on us leaving. 

Of course those architects of the EU were totally honest about their intentions when naming it the European ECONOMIC Community.
One of the founding fathers of the EU, Jean Monnet has been quoted as saying,
"Europe's nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by succesive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation"

So yes, you were really correct when you made the point about their honesty. 
The fact is there have been blatant lies told by remain, heres a few for you
 https://briefingsforbrexit.com/lies-lies...tatistics/

I'm not angry i leave that to people like yourself and your need to argue with anyone you can. I just find it amusing that people who consider themselves as liberals are acting in the most bigoted and illiberal manner because they haven't got their own way. 
And yes i have seen those idiots with the flag. I'm not really sure of the relevance here though, unless of course you are trying to extrapolate that all leavers are stupid based on the actions of a few people on youtube. Thats the same kind of thought process as racists by the way, tar the majority via the actions of a minority. Though if you wanted to play that game, have you seen the idiot who set up camp outside parliament for 3 years to moan

Let’s go through this again...
You brought up the wish for a small state. Your vision for what the state does and doesn’t do suggests you care little for those less fortunate than you. The disabled have the rights to use their money as they see fit the only problem is they have seen that money frozen or reduced but the services haven’t reduced their fees (the bullshit myth that aggressive capitalism will see care services fees reduce) and many council led ones have been cut. So only the well off able, disabled and their family / cater should have access to what most would see as normal standard of living? What if you can’t afford private healthcare? Just be grateful for a lesser service? Should only the comfortably well off enjoy the arts? Should all museums, galleries etc charge people to enter?
You bang on about me and others being mean to the working class but your idea of a small state would see millions of working people living poorer lives socially, economically, physically and culturally. A cold, selfish world that looks after number one. 

As for the argument that the state shouldn’t try and regenerate town centres etc? Why would anyone invest in Rochdale for example when our economy makes it pretty clear South East investment would generate more cash for those companies? Does the government not subsidise or make incentive them to do so? I assume you are against the Conservatives promising to invest in those Brexit voting northern towns then? Again your idea of no interference improves the lives of who? The people who feel left behind you so vehemently stuck up for on one hand but would happily pull the life support cables out with the other?  

The government and others are as you alluded to, to blame for many of the problems in this country but that isn’t due to the size and scope of what they do it’s due to the ineptness and ideologically driven ideals that govern their decisions. 

London didn’t become the prosperous city it is now without huge amounts of public money. For a society to work and be in some kind of unison you have to have a balance and respect between the public and private. The idea you, me or anyone else is where we are today without the states help is absolute shite. 

The EU didn’t divide this country we did that all by ourselves. All we are doing now is whittling down who to blame next. We’ve had the EU, we’ve had immigrants, I suspect it’ll be poor people fir being poor next and after them those that don’t ‘believe’.

[Baggybenny]

That very last sentence seems to have already started. Ten years of austerity was, essentially, aimed at the poor.

[Derek Hardballs]

I'm not sure how the anti austerity argument is a pro EU argument - austerity has been demanded of countries in debt and fiscal austerity is imposed on all to an extent with budgets liable to be rejected by the EU if they are too expansive re GDP. Ironically the Conservatives under ideologues like Osborne were more in line with EU economic thinking which has held growth rates back - as you would expect in an economy in recession which needs austerity like a kick in the head. Hopefully Boris is less ideological and will spend as would any future Labour government - without the threat of the EU not sanctioning it and continuing to impose their austerity economics approach which does not seem to be changing despite its failure.

It’s not a pro or anti EU argument. The Tories were always going to cut and if it wasn’t for the Lib Dems they would have cut further and harder. They advocate a small state it’s what they like to do. Where the EU come into this is when northern and midlands towns voters have heaped the blame on the EU when the state of their towns and cities is down to the decisions of the party they have just voted for again. The whole thing is a weird mixture of blaming the wrong people, making spacegoats of the vulnerable and foreign, jingoism and making decisions based on feelings rather than any rational thought based on known facts.

We are where we are and there’s nothing I can do about it but leavers seem to think we should all just come together or childishly say we won get over it  but then I think who was leading their campaign and I can’t, I will just be like all those people who were eurosceptics for decades and support returning to the EU.

[FenlandBoing]

I blame the spacegoats too

[Derek Hardballs]

I blame the spacegoats too

You’re aware that scapegoat is known as spacegoat on here I assume?

[FenlandBoing]

I blame the spacegoats too

You’re aware that scapegoat is known as spacegoat on here I assume?

I'm aware that Spacegoats are always to blame

[Derek Hardballs]

I blame the spacegoats too

You’re aware that scapegoat is known as spacegoat on here I assume?

I'm aware that Spacegoats are always to blame

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