07-29-2019, 01:09 AM
Here, for those belligerently demanding arguments for leaving, are just some of them.
Economy:
We pay in Billions more more than we get back and what we get back we have little say as to where and on what projects it is spent.
The EU’s Common External Tariff raises prices and reduces the quantities of goods and services available to consumers. Since consumers in the EU lack the experience of trading at world prices, this penalty is unnoticed. The Customs Union imposes more than 13,000 tariffs on imported goods. This results in E.U. consumers paying an average of 17% above world prices. E.U. Consumers pay above market rates for vegetables, citrus fruits, sugar and meats due to tariffs.
We pay more for Bananas, sugar, rice and NZ lamb, which is 18% more expensive here than in The USA, thanks to EU tariffs. This also adds an unfair burden and restrictions on the developing world’s agricultural sectors who are not allowed to expand into European markets. 80% of tariffs collected by the U.K. on goods from outside the EU are sent directly to Brussels.
Then we have the CAP. In the UK, because of EU policies, beef costs 35% more, turkey 22%, lamb 11%, wheat 15%, chicken 22%, and potatoes 10% - each of-those costs hitting every family in Britain. Particularly the hard up, disadvantage groups.
The E.U. has spent €640mil since 2015 buying up surplus milk powder to prop up dairy prices and to keep retail prices higher.
One of the Board’s great brains once posted a sarcastic argument: “You’ve also had to pay less money for your food, hotel accommodation etc thanks to all those pesky EU nationals doing the jobs Brits don’t want to.”
I replied “So the EU didn’t return to to the ‘70s and ‘80s policy of buying up surplus milk to prop up retail prices in 2015? To add to the £236 mil of taxpayer’s money used to buy butter in 2009.”
Are you saying the CAP doesn’t keep prices artificially high? Setting tariffs to keep out cheap imports. I think it more the hostile purchasing pressure put on our farmers by the supermarket chains that has kept prices down not the E.U.”
Jobs which had to be advertised Europe-wide, partly at taxpayers expense and there was a scheme paying up to £1000 to employers who took on foreign workers.”
As usual a retort was not forthcoming.
Forty percent of the E.U. Budget is given to farmers but the percentage of the E.U. Wide GDP contributed by agriculture is only one percent (1%) Hardly a fair or balanced distribution of tax payer’s money I would suggest. Particularly as it mostly goes to the wealthiest landowners to NOT grow crops!
Then we have the issue of genetically modified crops. Since their acceptance in many parts of the world since the 1990s, GM crops have raised the quantity and quality of food across the world while reducing energy consumption to grow them and requiring fewer harmful , insect killing pesticides. There is no scientifically documented evidence of harm to human health from GM crops but EU-precautionary legislation has meant a ban on all but one GM crop.
There are those on here that continually mock the idea of trading with WTO rules, well... for twenty five years, up to 2015, our trade with our original 11 EEC single market partners has grown by barely one percent per year but has risen by three percent (yes 3 times as much) with the , over one hundred, countries with whom we deal using WTO rules.
Only eight percent of U.K. companies trade with the E.U. (12% of our GDP)
Opportunities for our children.
Another stick used to beat the “Rabid, swivel eyed Brexit loons” Because leave supporters are callous, selfish old gits who do not care a jot about their offspring.
Unemployment as of January 2019:
The EU overall = 6.4%
The Euro zone = 7.8%
France. =8.8%
U.K. =4.0% (it has fallen since)
Greece is close to 19%, Spain is over 14% and Italy is over 10%. The U.K. doing well despite the dire warnings and predictions of what would happen the day following a ‘leave’ vote. The unemployment rate for the young in the southern and eastern states is eye watering. Not much opportunity there.
Domiciled:
Only 26% of U.K. citizens living abroad actually live and/or work in the E.U. One third of those are retirees (i.e. have not moved there for the much cited “job opportunities “). And a good percentage of the other two thirds are below working age.
785,000 Brits live in the E.U. Approximately (because the figures are not measured accurately) 3.8 million E.U. Citizens live in the U.K. Again, where are the opportunities?
I am pretty sure that Brits lived, worked and traveled on and exported to the European continent before 1973.
It’s ironic that there are some who claim that the “Old racists” are being selfish and then ask the question, “tell me how I will be better off”.
Then there is the fraud and mismanagement of regional aid which is the subject of another mini essay I could pen.
Democracy.
When anyone raises the issue of lack of democracy within the E.U. they are often derided and told they are categorically wrong. Here is a quote from that nice, conciliatory Mr Juncker ‘There can be no democratic choice against the European Treaties’. And one from the main driving force for the integration of European states, Jean Monnet, ‘Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished bysuccessive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation’. Both clear statements, it can not be denied, showing their conviction that the ordinary man or women should have no say in their own destiny. Views common to Fascists and Communists, I would venture.
Although there’s an electable European Council and European Parliament it is the Unelected European Commission which actually runs the Super State.
In 2011 the democratically elected governments of Greece and Italy were removed and replaced by “Technical Governments” run by ‘approved’ Euro friendly former Eurocrats. (Papdemos and Monti respectively). It can be argued that those elected governments were pretty dire but they were elected by their peoples and it should be for them, not the presidents of France , Germany, E.U. Commission and the ECB to remove them.
Then we have the oft chimed “Britain will have less influence in the world”. Well two things. 1, we only have one twenty eighth of one influence now. 2, why be so arrogant as to think this little nation should, would or could have any major influence anyway.
On this island the working, down trodden, virtual slaves class have struggled, suffered and fought for their democratic rights for many hundreds of years. From Magna Carta Libertatum, Watt Tyler and the Peasant’s Revolt and the Chartists through to the struggle for women’s emancipation. I abhor the thought that we, or more pertinently our elected representatives, have been happy to give, quite freely and knowingly, those rights up. I find that so immensely disrespectful of our forebears struggles for their beliefs and our suffrage. And they have done it with disdain. For me it is unforgivable. Ironic that it is Brexit supporters who are accused of harming their descendant’s future rights.
There is a certain pathetic irony in Remain supporters claiming it would be more democratic to have another referendum to vote to stay in an institution that is happy, nay determined, to deny them the democracy they clamber to use. Whilst never accepting the democracy of the first one.
Always remember Dekka, it was your despised Tory’s, under Ted Heath, who took us into the EEC without a public mandate to do so and conned the British electorate two years later during the ‘Stay in or leave’ referendum. ( “There is no Federalists agenda”, “There is no intention, ever, to form a European Army.”, “There are no plans to massively increase the number of member states”. Etc) still, he did get a nice free racing yacht out of it.
Please note, these are concrete facts and figures. Known, provable certainties. Not predictions, threats, possibles, assumptions or panic driven personal opinions. So, much of the benefit of leaving for me is to rid ourselves of these disadvantages.
Oh, and in case you think I’m all about the negatives, here are some positives:
We will be able to negotiate our own bespoke trade deals with other countries.
The net £180 million per week EU membership fee and the £70 million per week aid which is allocated to deprived regions and projects can be spent directly by the UK government rather than on EU-determined projects, (As an adjunct, since the Financial Crisis the EU has been a little tardy in doling out some of the allocated Regional Aid. Not just to The U.K. but other countries’ regions also. To the tune of
£137 million, at one time, to the English North East alone.)
We won’t have to comply with EU State Aid regulations. Articles 107 and 108 of the TFEU prevent the UK from giving State Aid without the EU Commission’s approval. (Meaning 27 other states have to agree... eventually) Do you remember the hue and cry when that Steel works oop north closed some months ago because the government didn’t step in quickly enough?
The EU Procurement Directive won’t be able to force us to give State contracts to overseas businesses.
Out of the EU, our fishing industry will recover through reclaiming our 200-mile limit. EU-flagged vessels have the right to a majority of the value of fish caught in UK waters. Furthermore, the system of sales means that much of the ‘British’ quota in our own waters goes to foreign vessels and is sold in foreign ports. I saw the strength of feeling among some of our fisherman last year in Whitby, with many boats draped in ‘No to EU Fisheries Policy’ or ‘No to EU Discard Directive’ banners.
We won’t have to comply with the VATMOSS legislation. This requires businesses, even if they’re below the VAT threshold, to charge VAT at the applicable rate in the country they’re selling to within the EU.
We wouldn’t have to comply with rules restricting, what are called, ‘natural monopolies’. Turns out we couldn’t renationalise the Rail Industry, The Postal Service and The Utilities, which should be under state ownership and control in my opinion, thanks to EU directives.
Postal Services Directives 97/67/EC and 2002/39/EC. And Directive 91/440/EC. Since you ask! So Mr. Corbyn might put it in his manifesto but he would not be able to keep
that pledge. Perhaps we can see why he is not too keen on the EU himself. Of coarse the Free Market, private profit Conservatives would never want to do that anyway!
Is that enough reasons / benefits for you?
I hope this shows that I do not suffer from Hydrophobia. My eyes do not swivel and the full moon does not affect me. Also, I didn’t believe (or in truth, misinterpret) what was “On the side of a bus”, “want me country back”, “drape myself in a Union flag” “want to send home them darkies and ‘orrible Johnny Foreigners” , “long for the olden days of the Raj”, “selfishly failed to consider my children” or want a bleedin’ “blue passport”, when I formed my considered opinion.
Economy:
We pay in Billions more more than we get back and what we get back we have little say as to where and on what projects it is spent.
The EU’s Common External Tariff raises prices and reduces the quantities of goods and services available to consumers. Since consumers in the EU lack the experience of trading at world prices, this penalty is unnoticed. The Customs Union imposes more than 13,000 tariffs on imported goods. This results in E.U. consumers paying an average of 17% above world prices. E.U. Consumers pay above market rates for vegetables, citrus fruits, sugar and meats due to tariffs.
We pay more for Bananas, sugar, rice and NZ lamb, which is 18% more expensive here than in The USA, thanks to EU tariffs. This also adds an unfair burden and restrictions on the developing world’s agricultural sectors who are not allowed to expand into European markets. 80% of tariffs collected by the U.K. on goods from outside the EU are sent directly to Brussels.
Then we have the CAP. In the UK, because of EU policies, beef costs 35% more, turkey 22%, lamb 11%, wheat 15%, chicken 22%, and potatoes 10% - each of-those costs hitting every family in Britain. Particularly the hard up, disadvantage groups.
The E.U. has spent €640mil since 2015 buying up surplus milk powder to prop up dairy prices and to keep retail prices higher.
One of the Board’s great brains once posted a sarcastic argument: “You’ve also had to pay less money for your food, hotel accommodation etc thanks to all those pesky EU nationals doing the jobs Brits don’t want to.”
I replied “So the EU didn’t return to to the ‘70s and ‘80s policy of buying up surplus milk to prop up retail prices in 2015? To add to the £236 mil of taxpayer’s money used to buy butter in 2009.”
Are you saying the CAP doesn’t keep prices artificially high? Setting tariffs to keep out cheap imports. I think it more the hostile purchasing pressure put on our farmers by the supermarket chains that has kept prices down not the E.U.”
Jobs which had to be advertised Europe-wide, partly at taxpayers expense and there was a scheme paying up to £1000 to employers who took on foreign workers.”
As usual a retort was not forthcoming.
Forty percent of the E.U. Budget is given to farmers but the percentage of the E.U. Wide GDP contributed by agriculture is only one percent (1%) Hardly a fair or balanced distribution of tax payer’s money I would suggest. Particularly as it mostly goes to the wealthiest landowners to NOT grow crops!
Then we have the issue of genetically modified crops. Since their acceptance in many parts of the world since the 1990s, GM crops have raised the quantity and quality of food across the world while reducing energy consumption to grow them and requiring fewer harmful , insect killing pesticides. There is no scientifically documented evidence of harm to human health from GM crops but EU-precautionary legislation has meant a ban on all but one GM crop.
There are those on here that continually mock the idea of trading with WTO rules, well... for twenty five years, up to 2015, our trade with our original 11 EEC single market partners has grown by barely one percent per year but has risen by three percent (yes 3 times as much) with the , over one hundred, countries with whom we deal using WTO rules.
Only eight percent of U.K. companies trade with the E.U. (12% of our GDP)
Opportunities for our children.
Another stick used to beat the “Rabid, swivel eyed Brexit loons” Because leave supporters are callous, selfish old gits who do not care a jot about their offspring.
Unemployment as of January 2019:
The EU overall = 6.4%
The Euro zone = 7.8%
France. =8.8%
U.K. =4.0% (it has fallen since)
Greece is close to 19%, Spain is over 14% and Italy is over 10%. The U.K. doing well despite the dire warnings and predictions of what would happen the day following a ‘leave’ vote. The unemployment rate for the young in the southern and eastern states is eye watering. Not much opportunity there.
Domiciled:
Only 26% of U.K. citizens living abroad actually live and/or work in the E.U. One third of those are retirees (i.e. have not moved there for the much cited “job opportunities “). And a good percentage of the other two thirds are below working age.
785,000 Brits live in the E.U. Approximately (because the figures are not measured accurately) 3.8 million E.U. Citizens live in the U.K. Again, where are the opportunities?
I am pretty sure that Brits lived, worked and traveled on and exported to the European continent before 1973.
It’s ironic that there are some who claim that the “Old racists” are being selfish and then ask the question, “tell me how I will be better off”.
Then there is the fraud and mismanagement of regional aid which is the subject of another mini essay I could pen.
Democracy.
When anyone raises the issue of lack of democracy within the E.U. they are often derided and told they are categorically wrong. Here is a quote from that nice, conciliatory Mr Juncker ‘There can be no democratic choice against the European Treaties’. And one from the main driving force for the integration of European states, Jean Monnet, ‘Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished bysuccessive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation’. Both clear statements, it can not be denied, showing their conviction that the ordinary man or women should have no say in their own destiny. Views common to Fascists and Communists, I would venture.
Although there’s an electable European Council and European Parliament it is the Unelected European Commission which actually runs the Super State.
In 2011 the democratically elected governments of Greece and Italy were removed and replaced by “Technical Governments” run by ‘approved’ Euro friendly former Eurocrats. (Papdemos and Monti respectively). It can be argued that those elected governments were pretty dire but they were elected by their peoples and it should be for them, not the presidents of France , Germany, E.U. Commission and the ECB to remove them.
Then we have the oft chimed “Britain will have less influence in the world”. Well two things. 1, we only have one twenty eighth of one influence now. 2, why be so arrogant as to think this little nation should, would or could have any major influence anyway.
On this island the working, down trodden, virtual slaves class have struggled, suffered and fought for their democratic rights for many hundreds of years. From Magna Carta Libertatum, Watt Tyler and the Peasant’s Revolt and the Chartists through to the struggle for women’s emancipation. I abhor the thought that we, or more pertinently our elected representatives, have been happy to give, quite freely and knowingly, those rights up. I find that so immensely disrespectful of our forebears struggles for their beliefs and our suffrage. And they have done it with disdain. For me it is unforgivable. Ironic that it is Brexit supporters who are accused of harming their descendant’s future rights.
There is a certain pathetic irony in Remain supporters claiming it would be more democratic to have another referendum to vote to stay in an institution that is happy, nay determined, to deny them the democracy they clamber to use. Whilst never accepting the democracy of the first one.
Always remember Dekka, it was your despised Tory’s, under Ted Heath, who took us into the EEC without a public mandate to do so and conned the British electorate two years later during the ‘Stay in or leave’ referendum. ( “There is no Federalists agenda”, “There is no intention, ever, to form a European Army.”, “There are no plans to massively increase the number of member states”. Etc) still, he did get a nice free racing yacht out of it.
Please note, these are concrete facts and figures. Known, provable certainties. Not predictions, threats, possibles, assumptions or panic driven personal opinions. So, much of the benefit of leaving for me is to rid ourselves of these disadvantages.
Oh, and in case you think I’m all about the negatives, here are some positives:
We will be able to negotiate our own bespoke trade deals with other countries.
The net £180 million per week EU membership fee and the £70 million per week aid which is allocated to deprived regions and projects can be spent directly by the UK government rather than on EU-determined projects, (As an adjunct, since the Financial Crisis the EU has been a little tardy in doling out some of the allocated Regional Aid. Not just to The U.K. but other countries’ regions also. To the tune of
£137 million, at one time, to the English North East alone.)
We won’t have to comply with EU State Aid regulations. Articles 107 and 108 of the TFEU prevent the UK from giving State Aid without the EU Commission’s approval. (Meaning 27 other states have to agree... eventually) Do you remember the hue and cry when that Steel works oop north closed some months ago because the government didn’t step in quickly enough?
The EU Procurement Directive won’t be able to force us to give State contracts to overseas businesses.
Out of the EU, our fishing industry will recover through reclaiming our 200-mile limit. EU-flagged vessels have the right to a majority of the value of fish caught in UK waters. Furthermore, the system of sales means that much of the ‘British’ quota in our own waters goes to foreign vessels and is sold in foreign ports. I saw the strength of feeling among some of our fisherman last year in Whitby, with many boats draped in ‘No to EU Fisheries Policy’ or ‘No to EU Discard Directive’ banners.
We won’t have to comply with the VATMOSS legislation. This requires businesses, even if they’re below the VAT threshold, to charge VAT at the applicable rate in the country they’re selling to within the EU.
We wouldn’t have to comply with rules restricting, what are called, ‘natural monopolies’. Turns out we couldn’t renationalise the Rail Industry, The Postal Service and The Utilities, which should be under state ownership and control in my opinion, thanks to EU directives.
Postal Services Directives 97/67/EC and 2002/39/EC. And Directive 91/440/EC. Since you ask! So Mr. Corbyn might put it in his manifesto but he would not be able to keep
that pledge. Perhaps we can see why he is not too keen on the EU himself. Of coarse the Free Market, private profit Conservatives would never want to do that anyway!
Is that enough reasons / benefits for you?
I hope this shows that I do not suffer from Hydrophobia. My eyes do not swivel and the full moon does not affect me. Also, I didn’t believe (or in truth, misinterpret) what was “On the side of a bus”, “want me country back”, “drape myself in a Union flag” “want to send home them darkies and ‘orrible Johnny Foreigners” , “long for the olden days of the Raj”, “selfishly failed to consider my children” or want a bleedin’ “blue passport”, when I formed my considered opinion.