The world has finally gone to hell in a handcart

[John Osborne’s Knuckle]

What are his values?

Surely if anyone in here knows it’s you. The greatest and most insightful political brain on here. If you don’t it begs the question, why do you berate the bloke so?

I’m always polite to you JOK so not sure why the sarcasm. Yes I call out general points of view but I only get personal when others do to me. 

There’s the thing though Dek, I would suggest you aren’t . Mostly by association I admit but you are not always polite.
You have spurred  me to “wave my little Union flag in the face of common sense”. Even if it did have a little winky thing after; the text equivalent ‘no disrespect BUT’. 
In general you have said some pretty horrid things about people who voted opposite to you in the referendum, or The First Peoples Vote as I now call it. So by association you have called me a; “masochist”, a “Numptie”, and a “Union Jack waving geriatric”. Whilst also inferring that people who voted for the U.Ks. withdrawal from the E.U. do not care about the planet. And that’s just a few of your proclamations and you make them in almost every thread you post in. Whatever the subject, even on the main bored.
I didn’t see it as sarcasm anyway as you have indicated, on a number of occasions, that you consider yourself to have a greater “understanding “ of the topics you regularly post on than anyone on here and  a greater intellect. Usually in exchanges with Liquid Hater though I can understand the sentiment there.  
As you have said on here (re the Albion post) We would be more mindful what we say on here. Even if we are “playing up to other’s  perception”. Which, to be honest, I don’t think you are.

You may not have used foul, personally abusive and ageist (well, you have been ageists at times) language that that delightful poster Donegal used to but that doesn’t mean I have to accept it without giving back.
Anyway, no offence! Winky thing.

[Derek Hardballs]

What are his values?

Surely if anyone in here knows it’s you. The greatest and most insightful political brain on here. If you don’t it begs the question, why do you berate the bloke so?

I’m always polite to you JOK so not sure why the sarcasm. Yes I call out general points of view but I only get personal when others do to me. 

There’s the thing though Dek, I would suggest you aren’t . Mostly by association I admit but you are not always polite.
You have spurred  me to “wave my little Union flag in the face of common sense”. Even if it did have a little winky thing after; the text equivalent ‘no disrespect BUT’. 
In general you have said some pretty horrid things about people who voted opposite to you in the referendum, or The First Peoples Vote as I now call it. So by association you have called me a; “masochist”, a “Numptie”, and a “Union Jack waving geriatric”. Whilst also inferring that people who voted for the U.Ks. withdrawal from the E.U. do not care about the planet. And that’s just a few of your proclamations and you make them in almost every thread you post in. Whatever the subject, even on the main bored.
I didn’t see it as sarcasm anyway as you have indicated, on a number of occasions, that you consider yourself to have a greater “understanding “ of the topics you regularly post on than anyone on here and  a greater intellect. Usually in exchanges with Liquid Hater though I can understand the sentiment there.  
As you have said on here (re the Albion post) We would be more mindful what we say on here. Even if we are “playing up to other’s  perception”. Which, to be honest, I don’t think you are.

You may not have used foul, personally abusive and ageist (well, you have been ageists at times) language that that delightful poster Donegal used to but that doesn’t mean I have to accept it without giving back.
Anyway, no offence! Winky thing.

Fair enough JOK but I do play to the galleries on here with how I express myself, but here is the truth about where I stand without hyperbole. I do think leaving the E.U. is a stupid decision with some very stupid reasons given for doing so, I do think this current government is the worst I’ve ever known for a variety of reasons, I do think many of the older generations have been selfish and left a complete mess for the younger generations to clean up. I could be polite about this, and maybe I should? Would it change the entrenched opinions we all share on here? Would it eck as like.

I don’t know as much as people like Borin Baggie, and others about politics but if you start at the general premise that you believe extremes in politics are unhealthy and that fairness and intelligence should be at the centre of all parties values then you’re going to be very annoyed at the current political situation. Way too many numpties, idiots, charlatans and political masochists leading the country in a direction may of us who feel disenfranchised politically don’t wish to go or accept.

[John Osborne’s Knuckle]

I’m always polite to you JOK so not sure why the sarcasm. Yes I call out general points of view but I only get personal when others do to me. 

There’s the thing though Dek, I would suggest you aren’t . Mostly by association I admit but you are not always polite.
You have spurred  me to “wave my little Union flag in the face of common sense”. Even if it did have a little winky thing after; the text equivalent ‘no disrespect BUT’. 
In general you have said some pretty horrid things about people who voted opposite to you in the referendum, or The First Peoples Vote as I now call it. So by association you have called me a; “masochist”, a “Numptie”, and a “Union Jack waving geriatric”. Whilst also inferring that people who voted for the U.Ks. withdrawal from the E.U. do not care about the planet. And that’s just a few of your proclamations and you make them in almost every thread you post in. Whatever the subject, even on the main bored.
I didn’t see it as sarcasm anyway as you have indicated, on a number of occasions, that you consider yourself to have a greater “understanding “ of the topics you regularly post on than anyone on here and  a greater intellect. Usually in exchanges with Liquid Hater though I can understand the sentiment there.  
As you have said on here (re the Albion post) We would be more mindful what we say on here. Even if we are “playing up to other’s  perception”. Which, to be honest, I don’t think you are.

You may not have used foul, personally abusive and ageist (well, you have been ageists at times) language that that delightful poster Donegal used to but that doesn’t mean I have to accept it without giving back.
Anyway, no offence! Winky thing.

Fair enough JOK but I do play to the galleries on here with how I express myself, but here is the truth about where I stand without hyperbole. I do think leaving the E.U. is a stupid decision with some very stupid reasons given for doing so, I do think this current government is the worst I’ve ever known for a variety of reasons, I do think many of the older generations have been selfish and left a complete mess for the younger generations to clean up. I could be polite about this, and maybe I should? Would it change the entrenched opinions we all share on here? Would it eck as like.

I don’t know as much as people like Borin Baggie, and others about politics but if you start at the general premise that you believe extremes in politics are unhealthy and that fairness and intelligence should be at the centre of all parties values then you’re going to be very annoyed at the current political situation. Way too many numpties, idiots, charlatans and political masochists leading the country in a direction may of us who feel disenfranchised politically don’t wish to go or accept.

Well, we can agree on the state of British politics, and the world’s for that matter, and the awful collection of politicians we find ourselves blessed with at present. I have no idea who I would vote for come the next G.E.
I would argue that older generations haven’t been selfish. Can you really believe that parents and grandparents would jeopardise their descendants future purely for their here and now? I believe that most of the mature voters chose as they did because they believed it was the correct coarse to take. It might be worth remembering that they have experience of living in both scenarios to base their views on.
Being more conciliatory and polite may not change the opinions of those in the opposite camp but calling people the ‘C’ word and lording a supposed superior intellect (sorry Dek but that is how it can come across at times) is certainly not going to persuade them to come out of their entrenched positions.
As I intimidated at the start, I understand and genuinely sympathise with your feeling of disenfranchisement but I do feel a little uneasy with the comment “Don’t wish... to accept”.  What is the alternative if not to go with the majority, however slim? Insurrection?

[Derek Hardballs]

I’m always polite to you JOK so not sure why the sarcasm. Yes I call out general points of view but I only get personal when others do to me. 

There’s the thing though Dek, I would suggest you aren’t . Mostly by association I admit but you are not always polite.
You have spurred  me to “wave my little Union flag in the face of common sense”. Even if it did have a little winky thing after; the text equivalent ‘no disrespect BUT’. 
In general you have said some pretty horrid things about people who voted opposite to you in the referendum, or The First Peoples Vote as I now call it. So by association you have called me a; “masochist”, a “Numptie”, and a “Union Jack waving geriatric”. Whilst also inferring that people who voted for the U.Ks. withdrawal from the E.U. do not care about the planet. And that’s just a few of your proclamations and you make them in almost every thread you post in. Whatever the subject, even on the main bored.
I didn’t see it as sarcasm anyway as you have indicated, on a number of occasions, that you consider yourself to have a greater “understanding “ of the topics you regularly post on than anyone on here and  a greater intellect. Usually in exchanges with Liquid Hater though I can understand the sentiment there.   :angel:
As you have said on here (re the Albion post) We would be more mindful what we say on here. Even if we are “playing up to other’s  perception”. Which, to be honest, I don’t think you are.

You may not have used foul, personally abusive and ageist (well, you have been ageists at times) language that that delightful poster Donegal used to but that doesn’t mean I have to accept it without giving back.
Anyway, no offence! Winky thing.

Fair enough JOK but I do play to the galleries on here with how I express myself, but here is the truth about where I stand without hyperbole. I do think leaving the E.U. is a stupid decision with some very stupid reasons given for doing so, I do think this current government is the worst I’ve ever known for a variety of reasons, I do think many of the older generations have been selfish and left a complete mess for the younger generations to clean up. I could be polite about this, and maybe I should? Would it change the entrenched opinions we all share on here? Would it eck as like.

I don’t know as much as people like Borin Baggie, and others about politics but if you start at the general premise that you believe extremes in politics are unhealthy and that fairness and intelligence should be at the centre of all parties values then you’re going to be very annoyed at the current political situation. Way too many numpties, idiots, charlatans and political masochists leading the country in a direction may of us who feel disenfranchised politically don’t wish to go or accept.

Well, we can agree on the state of British politics, and the world’s for that matter, and the awful collection of politicians we find ourselves blessed with at present. I have no idea who I would vote for come the next G.E.
I would argue that older generations haven’t been selfish. Can you really believe that parents and grandparents would jeopardise their descendants future purely for their here and now? I believe that most of the mature voters chose as they did because they believed it was the correct coarse to take. It might be worth remembering that they have experience of living in both scenarios to base their views on.
Being more conciliatory and polite may not change the opinions of those in the opposite camp but calling people the ‘C’ word and lording a supposed superior intellect (sorry Dek but that is how it can come across at times) is certainly not going to persuade them to come out of their entrenched positions.
As I intimidated at the start, I understand and genuinely sympathise with your feeling of disenfranchisement but I do feel a little uneasy with the comment “Don’t wish... to accept”.  What is the alternative if not to go with the majority, however slim? Insurrection?

The c word was used because I see austerity measures hurting the most vulnerable in society the most. Cuts were inevitable and necessary to a certain degree but the extent and who and how they were targeted (genuinely disabled for example) when the government can find £1bn to prop itself up via the DUP is c-sh behaviour, and those voted for them are complicit in that so I stand by that remark. It won’t change their minds but nothing would, it is an ideological decision and if it’s not, then you have to question the intelligence of those who made the decisions because it’s going to cost us all more in the long term. The mantra at the time was we are all in this together, on reflection who have suffered the most from the cuts?

Regarding the remark not to accept the decision well those who have lobbied for 40yrs to leave never did and wouldn’t have regardless of the result, so if this decision turns out to be a disaster then I will vote for a party that would be pro rejoining.  I could be wrong and it’s all going to be great. I’m sure people will tell the remainers they were wrong in which case I will stfu. However if it becomes clear the majority were wrong what redress do remainers have? All I can see is a future where many of those who voted to leave will be the same people who have been hit hardest by Brexit in which case they will rightly be called masochists for prolonging at a guess austerity for another decade at least!

Remembering yesteryear is a dangerous way to make decisions as memories are not fact and are tinged with nostalgia. Women’s rights, ethnic minorities, the disabled, gay people etc might not look back so fondly on pre EU Britain.

I don’t believe I have ever spoke down to you, or anyone I respect on here but I will call out people who can’t back up anything they say with a logical argument or resort to wishing me dead, calling all the expletives under the sun, do the leftie snowflake nonsense etc.

[Cheshire East Baggie]

Boris Johnson was widely recognized around Westminster as a disastrous Foreign Secretary who didn't read the briefs, didn't prepare for meetings and who made un-scripted speeches which didn't align with Government policy. Prior to which, the Parliamentary Tory Party closed ranks to freeze him out of the last leadership race because he was disliked and distrusted almost universally in Parliament.

Now we find that the Tories, having let the evil genie out of the bottle marked "Brexit", having woefully failed to make the best of the situation once it happened, are going to vote for Boris as PM because he is the best bet for their beleaguered party. Their only chance of stopping Corbyn (Corbyn FFS sake, not a proper human being) from winning a General Election.

I've got to the point where I think a disastrous no-deal Brexit, with disruption of food supplies, energy shortages, economic recession etc, is just what most British people deserve. It should be the end of both Conservative and Labour parties (but sadly won't be). For the rest of my life, whenever I hear a hard-luck story, see someone unemployed, scratching for a living on benefits, struggling to run a tight-margin business in farming, catering or hospitality, my first thought will be "I wonder which way you voted you c**t".

So, yes, we have gone to hell, but not for the reasons stated in the OP.

[Ossian]

Now we find that the Tories, having let the evil genie out of the bottle marked "Brexit", having woefully failed to make the best of the situation once it happened, are going to vote for Boris as PM because he is the best bet for their beleaguered party. Their only chance of stopping Corbyn (Corbyn FFS sake, not a proper human being) from winning a General Election.

This post goes right to the heart of it.

Such is their lack of clarity and conviction, Tory MPs have (probably) facilitated the route to the party leadership/PM for a man who the majority of them would probably prefer not to have to consider; the membership will duly add the finishing touches by confirming Johnson as their preference. The Tory-voting electorate in its entirety wouldn't make the same choice, but somehow this seems to escape both the MPs and the party members and there may yet be a reckoning at the polls.

Farage has once again managed to dictate the agenda for the Tories; exactly as he did in 2015, when Cameron was panicked into promising an ill-advised plebiscite (and he was warned that it was indeed ill-advised). Add to that a paranoia about Corbyn and you have a party whose direction is being almost completely defined by a rump of hard right MPs, together with some outside influences and barely at all by any sense of conviction or identity.

Meanwhile, those of us on the centre-left - equally paranoid about Corbyn - are desperate for some kind of realignment; a genuine social democratic alternative. One we would probably then decide not to vote for anyway, because FPTP would make doing so pointless. That said, PR would, right now, hand The Brexit Party an awful lot of seats (and a lot of awful MPs) so that would hardly be a panacea.

Checkmate

[Derek Hardballs]

Now we find that the Tories, having let the evil genie out of the bottle marked "Brexit", having woefully failed to make the best of the situation once it happened, are going to vote for Boris as PM because he is the best bet for their beleaguered party. Their only chance of stopping Corbyn (Corbyn FFS sake, not a proper human being) from winning a General Election.

This post goes right to the heart of it.

Such is their lack of clarity and conviction, Tory MPs have (probably) facilitated the route to the party leadership/PM for a man who the majority of them would probably prefer not to have to consider; the membership will duly add the finishing touches by confirming Johnson as their preference. The Tory-voting electorate in its entirety wouldn't make the same choice, but somehow this seems to escape both the MPs and the party members and there may yet be a reckoning at the polls.

Farage has once again managed to dictate the agenda for the Tories; exactly as he did in 2015, when Cameron was panicked into promising an ill-advised plebiscite (and he was warned that it was indeed ill-advised). Add to that a paranoia about Corbyn and you have a party whose direction is being almost completely defined by a rump of hard right MPs, together with some outside influences and barely at all by any sense of conviction or identity.

Meanwhile, those of us on the centre-left - equally paranoid about Corbyn - are desperate for some kind of realignment; a genuine social democratic alternative. One we would probably then decide not to vote for anyway, because FPTP would make doing so pointless. That said, PR would, right now, hand The Brexit Party an awful lot of seats (and a lot of awful MPs) so that would hardly be a panacea.

Checkmate

Great post.

[Babel]

Now we find that the Tories, having let the evil genie out of the bottle marked "Brexit", having woefully failed to make the best of the situation once it happened, are going to vote for Boris as PM because he is the best bet for their beleaguered party. Their only chance of stopping Corbyn (Corbyn FFS sake, not a proper human being) from winning a General Election.

This post goes right to the heart of it.

Such is their lack of clarity and conviction, Tory MPs have (probably) facilitated the route to the party leadership/PM for a man who the majority of them would probably prefer not to have to consider; the membership will duly add the finishing touches by confirming Johnson as their preference. The Tory-voting electorate in its entirety wouldn't make the same choice, but somehow this seems to escape both the MPs and the party members and there may yet be a reckoning at the polls.

Farage has once again managed to dictate the agenda for the Tories; exactly as he did in 2015, when Cameron was panicked into promising an ill-advised plebiscite (and he was warned that it was indeed ill-advised). Add to that a paranoia about Corbyn and you have a party whose direction is being almost completely defined by a rump of hard right MPs, together with some outside influences and barely at all by any sense of conviction or identity.

Meanwhile, those of us on the centre-left - equally paranoid about Corbyn - are desperate for some kind of realignment; a genuine social democratic alternative. One we would probably then decide not to vote for anyway, because FPTP would make doing so pointless. That said, PR would, right now, hand The Brexit Party an awful lot of seats (and a lot of awful MPs) so that would hardly be a panacea.

Checkmate

Great post.

Agree, Oss.

What rankles me about the Tories is the way they assume the best interests of their party are necessarily the best interests of the nation. Thus, party unity above all, coalesce around Brexit for the good of the party and the nation. That conflation is simply not self-evident.

Labour, meanwhile, are so far up their own procedural creek they can't see the obvious. Nobody gives a fart as to whether the party meeting in September delivers a mildly remain or referendum policy. Their voters are fleeing in droves to the greater clarity of the LibDems and Greens.

Proportional representation, properly done, is as much a hindrance on parties like the Brexiteers in most circumstances. Tories and Brexiters together haven't shown much ability to  muster a majority in polls--a pre-requisite for power. Moreover proportional representation would likely guarantee more voices in our political process, and that can't be bad.

[Tom Joad]

I can't stand Boris, personally, but I think that if any party comes out of this badly, it is his neighbours.

[Cheshire East Baggie]

I can't stand Boris, personally, but I think that if any party comes out of this badly, it is his neighbours.

This won't help him to win over the Tory Party members. Maybe the real tactical voting was to ensure the inoffensive Hunt got in ahead of the annoying and divisive Gove. Boris is a completely unreliable and thoroughly unpleasant human being. The Tories need to be reminded of that and presented with a "safe" alternative. So this stitch-up may work.