Sandwell Councillor defects to Reform

[Jacko]

CF on very shaky ground here.

Neck on it.

Only in the mind of the true anti semites who have the audacity to abuse the term and reshape it for their own ends

Extremely shaky.

[man in the corner shop]

Like Craig or Stevens?

[tHEgLASSdOORS]

Like Craig or Stevens?

Arf.

Corporal Cracko has spoken, be told.

[Pontificator]

Ahhh so we should just be sound with genocide 

You are Cathy Newman and I claim my £5.

1. We should not be "sound" with the death of innocent people (grades 1-10) anywhere.

2. Nor should we stand shoulder to shoulder with people who do not believe the state of Israel should exist. Unfortunately many of you do just that, and anyone who’s been on any of those marches certainly does. Anti-semitism laundered as "opposition to Israel".

1. Never been on a march

2. I can criticise Israel and not be anti-semitic. In fact, the only true anti-semitism I see on here is people who continually weaken the true meaning by misrepresenting what it is and isn’t

3. I don’t like Hamas either 

4. I’d like the State of Israel to exist with respect for international law, life and without a bunch of far right nutcases causing the problems that they are (you say different)

You mean like you weaken the meaning of genocide 

Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
   
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
   
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
   
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
   
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
   

The key elements are:

• The intent to destroy (intent is essential),
  
• The group must be national, ethnic, racial, or religious,
  
• At least one of the listed acts must be committed.
  

Just for clarity - which of those elements do you think have NOT been met?

Even accepting Hamas’s 70,000 death figure, which counts no militants and includes natural deaths, the civilian-to-combatant ratio, using IDF estimates, is under 1.5 to 1, far below the global war average of about 9 to 1 - No army fighting a justifiable war has done more to avoid civilian deaths than the IDF. Civilian casualties do not prove intent

[Shabby Russian]

You are Cathy Newman and I claim my £5.

1. We should not be "sound" with the death of innocent people (grades 1-10) anywhere.

2. Nor should we stand shoulder to shoulder with people who do not believe the state of Israel should exist. Unfortunately many of you do just that, and anyone who’s been on any of those marches certainly does. Anti-semitism laundered as "opposition to Israel".

1. Never been on a march

2. I can criticise Israel and not be anti-semitic. In fact, the only true anti-semitism I see on here is people who continually weaken the true meaning by misrepresenting what it is and isn’t

3. I don’t like Hamas either 

4. I’d like the State of Israel to exist with respect for international law, life and without a bunch of far right nutcases causing the problems that they are (you say different)

You mean like you weaken the meaning of genocide 

Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
   
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
   
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
   
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
   
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
   

The key elements are:

• The intent to destroy (intent is essential),
  
• The group must be national, ethnic, racial, or religious,
  
• At least one of the listed acts must be committed.
  

Just for clarity - which of those elements do you think have NOT been met?

Even accepting Hamas’s 70,000 death figure, which counts no militants and includes natural deaths, the civilian-to-combatant ratio, using IDF estimates, is under 1.5 to 1, far below the global war average of about 9 to 1 - No army fighting a justifiable war has done more to avoid civilian deaths than the IDF. Civilian casualties do not prove intent

If you bombard a densely populated area, then clearly you do intend to kill anybody who resides in that area.

The question for debate is whether it is justified or not.

[CarlosCorbewrong]

1. Never been on a march

2. I can criticise Israel and not be anti-semitic. In fact, the only true anti-semitism I see on here is people who continually weaken the true meaning by misrepresenting what it is and isn’t

3. I don’t like Hamas either 

4. I’d like the State of Israel to exist with respect for international law, life and without a bunch of far right nutcases causing the problems that they are (you say different)

You mean like you weaken the meaning of genocide 

Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
   
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
   
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
   
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
   
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
   

The key elements are:

• The intent to destroy (intent is essential),
  
• The group must be national, ethnic, racial, or religious,
  
• At least one of the listed acts must be committed.
  

Just for clarity - which of those elements do you think have NOT been met?

Even accepting Hamas’s 70,000 death figure, which counts no militants and includes natural deaths, the civilian-to-combatant ratio, using IDF estimates, is under 1.5 to 1, far below the global war average of about 9 to 1 - No army fighting a justifiable war has done more to avoid civilian deaths than the IDF. Civilian casualties do not prove intent

If you bombard a densely populated area, then clearly you do intend to kill anybody who resides in that area.

The question for debate is whether it is justified or not.

According to Ponti's list - justification doesn't come into it.  

The question of genocide seems to revolve around whether carpet bombing a densely populated area constitutes intent.  I would also argue that the blockading of food would warrant the same scrutiny.

Proth uses distraction again, looking at volume rather than the criteria.  Of course, you could use <sniggers> IDF estimates.  Some people would like to use Neo Nazi estimates of the number of deaths at Auschwitz, for balance.  Neither are a credible source.

I suspect that the next defence will be that they're not all Muslim or Palestinian so it wasn't an attempt to wipe out "whole or part of the group".

[Pontificator]

1. Never been on a march

2. I can criticise Israel and not be anti-semitic. In fact, the only true anti-semitism I see on here is people who continually weaken the true meaning by misrepresenting what it is and isn’t

3. I don’t like Hamas either 

4. I’d like the State of Israel to exist with respect for international law, life and without a bunch of far right nutcases causing the problems that they are (you say different)

You mean like you weaken the meaning of genocide 

Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
   
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
   
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
   
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
   
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
   

The key elements are:

• The intent to destroy (intent is essential),
  
• The group must be national, ethnic, racial, or religious,
  
• At least one of the listed acts must be committed.
  

Just for clarity - which of those elements do you think have NOT been met?

Even accepting Hamas’s 70,000 death figure, which counts no militants and includes natural deaths, the civilian-to-combatant ratio, using IDF estimates, is under 1.5 to 1, far below the global war average of about 9 to 1 - No army fighting a justifiable war has done more to avoid civilian deaths than the IDF. Civilian casualties do not prove intent

If you bombard a densely populated area, then clearly you do intend to kill anybody who resides in that area.

The question for debate is whether it is justified or not.

It is indeed a debate, one influenced by the information delivered by each side. Each side can choose what to believe. From my pov I find it hard to take the snide insults and being called a "cunt" for not choosing to believe the HAMAS terrorist propaganda and the islamist pro-pal shitheads, who have basically caused the anti semitic attacks that Mr P has spoken about.

[tHEgLASSdOORS]

Could be Hamas has even hijacked Pontys account such is its global reach and stranglehold.

Think on.

[CarlosCorbewrong]

Could be Hamas has even hijacked Pontys account such is its global reach and stranglehold.

Think on.

A 5th columnist who, when he finally acknowledges the genocide, will convert millions of other doubters to the HAMAS cause.

PS: Please be respectful - he has highlighted that he doesn't like being called a cunt by shitheads.

[Shabby Russian]

It's not even a case of who to believe.

You can argue on individual incidents as to whether they happened in the way one side said it did.

But overall you cannot argue that the destruction of Gaza wrought by military bombardment will inevitably lead to the death of people, most of whom will be civilians.

You either think that's justified or it's not...propaganda is not relevant.