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[chasetownbaggie]

Not everything is about money

Isn't it? One of the justifications used in my local FB group is that it's not fair the illegals get given stuff when they haven't paid into the system and those who have paid in get nothing or have to fight for it.

[baggy1]

The incredible level of blind support for Reform is nearing on the cult now.

We need more houses - reform won’t build those houses. I don’t care they are the only answer.

We need more hospitals - we don’t have enough nurses to staff them if you stop immigration, reform want to reduce immigration. I don’t care, they are the only answer.

[Baggiejacko]

There's none so blind that will not see.

Pork time on here again and time to do something enjoyable. Have a good day all.

[Borin' Baggie]

If all else fails, push the racism/xenophobia button. It's a matter of numbers regardless of origin ffs. The next election is a long way off but a certain bogey man won't let people forget their frustrations and anger for a minute between then and now. People that feel they're being shat on will turn off the shat tap asap. The next few weeks aint going to be pretty as a result of yesterday's reversal topping up the frustrations

Explain what you mean by ‘it’s a matter of numbers’? Simple questions - do we need immigration? And do you think that the 4% of that immigration is the difference between everything being alright and everything being shit?

There's an absolute crippling housing crisis. How does 28k illegal immigrants this year so far alone help this besides legal ones? They are put in hotels because there is nowhere else to put them. When they almost all processed positively where are they going? You have to start somewhere. All about numbers

There's a housing crisis because we haven't built 4,000,000 homes over the last 40 years. There would be a housing crisis with net negative immigration. The party you are going to vote for is opposed to building more houses.

Probably 100% all true but the answer isn't to keep allowing the situation to worsen. We're skint and can't build the houses even if we find spaces for them. It aint just houses needed its hospitals, schools, doctors practices and other infrastructure. It needs a stop till we've caught up. Then there's the matter of staffing these places needed. Ffs we're at bursting point in a lot of areas.

The answer is to build more houses and other infrastructure, Reform have said they will obstruct that adding to the housing crisis and the demand squeeze on capacity for public services and transport. They are not the answer. Their "plan" for stopping irregular migration is complete bunk. The hotels are being used because the last government paused processing claimants for some stupid fucking reason creating a backlog that needs to be processed in order to deport the people who have no right of claim.

I am getting fed up of this country actively making things worse by continually voting for charlatans because they are blinded by a single issue ignoring all the shite being spouted that doesn't even get fixed.

[Derek Hardballs]

It is to those businesses depriving the very communities they operate in - they pay their taxes and we all have a better life. But why don’t you look over here at these foreigners and blame them for the state of the country.

…and Labour have done what about this? The only difficult decisions they’ve wanted to make was to cut billions of pounds of support to the poorest and most vulnerable whilst dividing people into deserving ‘working’ and not deserving disabled, pensioners and carers. The narrative Labour are pushing with their actions is appalling, they are ushering in an awful Reform government, whilst their supporters scratch their heads as to why the are haemorrhaging support. Whoever is advising Starmer and co are simply terrible at their jobs.

The penny is going to drop, any minute now...

With who CC? There are no solutions that would be palatable to anyone I’m afraid, if I was brave enough to ask what solutions would you propose I would either get some form of ‘I’m just a bloke on a football message board’ response, or something about a wealth tax that wouldn’t work. Plenty of examples of where it doesn’t work are available. 

They have introduced a wealth tax btw by adding pensions into the IHT calculation but that will take time to filter through, but you want it now. You want to solve years of problems caused by Brexit and austerity in just over 12 months.

So the solution was/is to go after the poorest in society and in turn, make those people hate the Labour Party for laying the blame on them (who can blame them) whilst saying it’s just too difficult to do anything to upset the well off, who have never suffered from austerity. I wonder why people are turning to parties such as Reform and blaming asylum seekers, or looking to Corbyn. You can tell them how stupid they are, but Labour are offering fug all but more of the same shite that Sunak offered.

[Squid]

Explain what you mean by ‘it’s a matter of numbers’? Simple questions - do we need immigration? And do you think that the 4% of that immigration is the difference between everything being alright and everything being shit?

There's an absolute crippling housing crisis. How does 28k illegal immigrants this year so far alone help this besides legal ones? They are put in hotels because there is nowhere else to put them. When they almost all processed positively where are they going? You have to start somewhere. All about numbers

There's a housing crisis because we haven't built 4,000,000 homes over the last 40 years. There would be a housing crisis with net negative immigration. The party you are going to vote for is opposed to building more houses.

Probably 100% all true but the answer isn't to keep allowing the situation to worsen. We're skint and can't build the houses even if we find spaces for them. It aint just houses needed its hospitals, schools, doctors practices and other infrastructure. It needs a stop till we've caught up. Then there's the matter of staffing these places needed. Ffs we're at bursting point in a lot of areas.

The answer is to build more houses and other infrastructure, Reform have said they will obstruct that adding to the housing crisis and the demand squeeze on capacity for public services and transport. They are not the answer. Their "plan" for stopping irregular migration is complete bunk. The hotels are being used because the last government paused processing claimants for some stupid fucking reason creating a backlog that needs to be processed in order to deport the people who have no right of claim.

I am getting fed up of this country actively making things worse by continually voting for charlatans because they are blinded by a single issue ignoring all the shite being spouted that doesn't even get fixed.

This times a thousand. Damaged the country through Brexit and that still wasn't enough for them. They're now online being driven to increasing levels of froth by foreign bot farms and AI race war slop.

[Derek Hardballs]

There's an absolute crippling housing crisis. How does 28k illegal immigrants this year so far alone help this besides legal ones? They are put in hotels because there is nowhere else to put them. When they almost all processed positively where are they going? You have to start somewhere. All about numbers

There's a housing crisis because we haven't built 4,000,000 homes over the last 40 years. There would be a housing crisis with net negative immigration. The party you are going to vote for is opposed to building more houses.

Probably 100% all true but the answer isn't to keep allowing the situation to worsen. We're skint and can't build the houses even if we find spaces for them. It aint just houses needed its hospitals, schools, doctors practices and other infrastructure. It needs a stop till we've caught up. Then there's the matter of staffing these places needed. Ffs we're at bursting point in a lot of areas.

The answer is to build more houses and other infrastructure, Reform have said they will obstruct that adding to the housing crisis and the demand squeeze on capacity for public services and transport. They are not the answer. Their "plan" for stopping irregular migration is complete bunk. The hotels are being used because the last government paused processing claimants for some stupid fucking reason creating a backlog that needs to be processed in order to deport the people who have no right of claim.

I am getting fed up of this country actively making things worse by continually voting for charlatans because they are blinded by a single issue ignoring all the shite being spouted that doesn't even get fixed.

This times a thousand. Damaged the country through Brexit and that still wasn't enough for them. They're now online being driven to increasing levels of froth by foreign bot farms and AI race war slop.

…and it’s working, and what is the counter argument that is cutting through? I mean people can kid themselves that building more houses will magically make Reform less popular but it won’t.

[Protheroe]

Not if it foils Reform. You’re welcome to bathe in your intellectual purity, I’d rather prevent to worst of all worlds. I appreciate dealing with the reality of government is not habitual for Lib Dems and their supporters.

Yes, because falling for Reform's salami slice tactics is really working wonders at the moment and they're definitely not polling at 30% on course for a majority after both Labour and the Tories have followed their narrative continually over the last year.

Who’s falling for anything Reform say? I just like to see some action to neutralise the single issue Reform is relying on.

You are. Labour are. The Tories are. 

It won't neutralise them. All that will happen is you cede ground on this, they move further into fully leaving the ECHR and UN Refugee Convention and drag you there while still being on track to form the next government. That is the point of their salami slicing tactic.

No I’m not. Labour and the Tories were arguing about this for a term or two long before Reform emerged as an electoral force. The sheer number of illegal arrivals and Reform’s rise have put rocket boosters under the issue.

We do not need to leave the ECHR. We can revise domestic law as to the validity of asylum claims, this isn’t the 1950s when asylum was granted to dissidents. The same revision can instruct the courts to take into account what a higher court might say, but to dismiss it where it’s not compatible with domestic law.

What we can’t do is carry on the way we are. Unless you have a better idea?

[Borin' Baggie]

Yes, I do have a better idea.

1. Legalise cannabis and other soft drugs to starve out the demand for gangs to smuggle in indentured servants/slaves into their domestic black market operations.

2. More labour regulation of the grey market to cut off the incentive to come here and make money, more frequent stops and checks by police for people who earn through those services and image checks with end-users and businesses interacting with them to confirm the person delivering is the owner of the account instead of a name.

3. Re-join the Dublin Convention to re-introduce the deterrent of being removed back to the continent immediately for anyone who crosses the channel, in exchange for dealing with the pool of claimants across the continent with all other European countries. Because you aren't going to remove them once they're here if you aren't working with the places that you're removing them to and it's a hell of a lot more palatable to work with the EU than the fucking IRGC and Taliban.

4. Introduce pathways for asylum applications for people closer to conflict zones who are more likely to be vulnerable (women and children) to incentivise a more favourable mix of asylum seekers coming in that have been pre-screened and offering better means to reject those who do not come via those approved pathways.

5. Danish-style integration and assimilation incentives such as the anti-ghetto laws.

6. Fucking building shit. Build processing and detention facilities, build the schools for the children of asylum seekers to learn with a targeted curriculum for better integration into mainstream education.

I know the last point isn't going to happen overnight but the other 5 can. This wasn't a problem when we were in the EU, was it? Even with things like the Calais Jungle. But no, apparently 6,000 asylum seekers via the Dublin convention was too much - how much you'd love to get it back down to that, hey?

And yes you absolutely are falling for their salami slicing. First it was leave the EU. Now it's modifying the 1998 HRA to disapply the EHRC. Soon it will be we need to leave the EHRC and Council of Europe. And finally it will be we need to leave the 1951 UN Refugee Convention. Slice by slice, you the Tories and Labour are falling for it and I'm sick of it, pandering to the hard right doesn't stop them. All you are doing is letting them say "hey look, these "moderates" said we were right after fighting" and legitimising them as the populations frustrations aren't fixed. They aren't right, they don't have a point, their plans aren't fixing anything and they need to be called out for their bullshit instead of pandered to.

[CarlosCorbewrong]

All of this is too difficult to achieve