Takeover

[Hudds1]

I don’t see how you can build a squad of any note with this arbitrary wage cap. Any decent player who comes through our ranks and proves themselves is not going to meekly accept low wages when they can move to a club that pays more. We imo are setting ourselves up if this the plan for decades in the Championship unless we have one lucky Luton-esque season where the stars align and we go up.

You’re missing the key point that all clubs around us would be subject to similar wage restrictions.  Nobody in this division (other than those with parachute payments) will be able to pay any more. The Championship is unsustainable with the status quo.  Something has to change.

I’m not missing the point, the point is to build a squad capable of promotion AND then competing in the Prem with a core group of players like we did before will be impossible under this way of operating. Brunt, Morrison, Foster etc would have all gone and we would just start the rebuilding cycle over and over. Sure we might do a Luton but more likely we will just stagnate and go backwards over time. The amount of investment to play money ball is expensive and cannot happen as a self sustaining club at least not at the outset.

Also when we were doing well in the Prem and Championship our wage bill was very high compared to our income. It wasn’t our genius system it was the fact we offered competitive wages in the Prem and outstripped our competitors in the Championship that made us competitive. We may not have spent millions on transfer fees but our wages were very good. Now we are suggesting we can compete with low wage and low transfer fees it’s fantasy football imo.

It simply isn’t possible for ANY club to have a squad capable of winning promotion AND stay up.  It would have to be massively strengthened.  Times have moved on. The gulf is too big.  All clubs are going to have to be self-sufficient.  The current model is completely broken.

---

I think you are missing the point Derek.

The new rules, if enforced correctly, will mean all clubs will need to dial down wages considerably. It affects all clubs. I see it as a good thing personally. The quality of coaching and improving of players will be paramount and at the moment, that puts us in a good position.

It will lead to a Prem 2 very quickly imo otherwise clubs like ourselves, Blues, Boro etc will not bridge the gap again as the advantage will be even higher for relegated clubs. For any league to operate properly you need the consent of the clubs in it, I just cannot see the bigger clubs with owners eager to get promotion sticking with this more egalitarian way of operating. It’s a great idea to be self sufficient but I just cannot see in reality how it work. Rules are there to be worked around, look at Blues and their ‘sponsorship’ deal as the potential direction of travel.

Yes it could well lead to a Prem 2.  I said that higher up this thread.

There are not so many owners out there prepared to write almost a blank cheque to finance a club with annual losses of millions of pounds - and more.  Several existing PL clubs will go bust once their current rich owners die, get divorced, fall on bad times business-wise.  They are realising that it’s a money out. It’s broken.  Everton and Forest may well be the first to go.

Seems that way.  The players have expectations that cannot be fulfilled - the "big" clubs across Europe put themselves at risk, never mind the others.

Without some sanity, the players really will kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.  And upward of £10k per week for many really is a golden egg.

[Derek Hardballs]

I don’t see how you can build a squad of any note with this arbitrary wage cap. Any decent player who comes through our ranks and proves themselves is not going to meekly accept low wages when they can move to a club that pays more. We imo are setting ourselves up if this the plan for decades in the Championship unless we have one lucky Luton-esque season where the stars align and we go up.

You’re missing the key point that all clubs around us would be subject to similar wage restrictions.  Nobody in this division (other than those with parachute payments) will be able to pay any more. The Championship is unsustainable with the status quo.  Something has to change.

I’m not missing the point, the point is to build a squad capable of promotion AND then competing in the Prem with a core group of players like we did before will be impossible under this way of operating. Brunt, Morrison, Foster etc would have all gone and we would just start the rebuilding cycle over and over. Sure we might do a Luton but more likely we will just stagnate and go backwards over time. The amount of investment to play money ball is expensive and cannot happen as a self sustaining club at least not at the outset.

Also when we were doing well in the Prem and Championship our wage bill was very high compared to our income. It wasn’t our genius system it was the fact we offered competitive wages in the Prem and outstripped our competitors in the Championship that made us competitive. We may not have spent millions on transfer fees but our wages were very good. Now we are suggesting we can compete with low wage and low transfer fees it’s fantasy football imo.

You moaned about the club kicking the can down the road, by taking out the MSD loans.  Now the club are trying to reduce losses, by reducing wages, you’re moaning again.  

You can’t have your cake and eat it Derek 

No I didn’t I have barely mentioned the loans. I said that selling our better players solves nothing and simply meant we prolonged the inevitable administration if we were not sold to a new owner. The idea under the current owners that we can become self sufficient and do anything but cling to Championship survival is naive to say the least.

Our club whether it risks breaking FFP rules or not needs investment to move forward as Blues owners are doing and discovering. At present we are competing well due to the quality of players we have and the manager if they leave we have very little to fall back on. No DoF with any track record, a depleted scouting network, an academy that is doing well but at the mercy of players loyalty as Villa and others look to pick off our best youngsters. Self sufficiency is at least two or three seasons away if a new owner has genuine ambitions of getting us back up if we fail to this year.

This isn’t moaning it’s just a hypothetical discussion about what may or may not happen. I’m not looking for an argument just a conversation about it. Feel free to disagree but it’s not moaning to put an alternative point of view on where we are as a club.

[Fulham Fallout]

I don’t see how you can build a squad of any note with this arbitrary wage cap. Any decent player who comes through our ranks and proves themselves is not going to meekly accept low wages when they can move to a club that pays more. We imo are setting ourselves up if this the plan for decades in the Championship unless we have one lucky Luton-esque season where the stars align and we go up.

You’re missing the key point that all clubs around us would be subject to similar wage restrictions.  Nobody in this division (other than those with parachute payments) will be able to pay any more. The Championship is unsustainable with the status quo.  Something has to change.

I’m not missing the point, the point is to build a squad capable of promotion AND then competing in the Prem with a core group of players like we did before will be impossible under this way of operating. Brunt, Morrison, Foster etc would have all gone and we would just start the rebuilding cycle over and over. Sure we might do a Luton but more likely we will just stagnate and go backwards over time. The amount of investment to play money ball is expensive and cannot happen as a self sustaining club at least not at the outset.

Also when we were doing well in the Prem and Championship our wage bill was very high compared to our income. It wasn’t our genius system it was the fact we offered competitive wages in the Prem and outstripped our competitors in the Championship that made us competitive. We may not have spent millions on transfer fees but our wages were very good. Now we are suggesting we can compete with low wage and low transfer fees it’s fantasy football imo.

You moaned about the club kicking the can down the road, by taking out the MSD loans.  Now the club are trying to reduce losses, by reducing wages, you’re moaning again.  

You can’t have your cake and eat it Derek 

No I didn’t I have barely mentioned the loans. I said that selling our better players solves nothing and simply meant we prolonged administration if we were not sold to a new owner. The idea under the current owners that we can become self sufficient and do anything but cling to Championship survival is naive to say the least.

I stand corrected.  But you did keep saying we cannot continue to kick the can down the road.

[Pragmatist]

I don’t see how you can build a squad of any note with this arbitrary wage cap. Any decent player who comes through our ranks and proves themselves is not going to meekly accept low wages when they can move to a club that pays more. We imo are setting ourselves up if this the plan for decades in the Championship unless we have one lucky Luton-esque season where the stars align and we go up.

You’re missing the key point that all clubs around us would be subject to similar wage restrictions.  Nobody in this division (other than those with parachute payments) will be able to pay any more. The Championship is unsustainable with the status quo.  Something has to change.

I’m not missing the point, the point is to build a squad capable of promotion AND then competing in the Prem with a core group of players like we did before will be impossible under this way of operating. Brunt, Morrison, Foster etc would have all gone and we would just start the rebuilding cycle over and over. Sure we might do a Luton but more likely we will just stagnate and go backwards over time. The amount of investment to play money ball is expensive and cannot happen as a self sustaining club at least not at the outset.

Also when we were doing well in the Prem and Championship our wage bill was very high compared to our income. It wasn’t our genius system it was the fact we offered competitive wages in the Prem and outstripped our competitors in the Championship that made us competitive. We may not have spent millions on transfer fees but our wages were very good. Now we are suggesting we can compete with low wage and low transfer fees it’s fantasy football imo.

You moaned about the club kicking the can down the road, by taking out the MSD loans.  Now the club are trying to reduce losses, by reducing wages, you’re moaning again.  

You can’t have your cake and eat it Derek 

No I didn’t I have barely mentioned the loans. I said that selling our better players solves nothing and simply meant we prolonged administration if we were not sold to a new owner. The idea under the current owners that we can become self sufficient and do anything but cling to Championship survival is naive to say the least.

All clubs in the Championship will become self-sufficient.  Our crowds and our academy provide us with every opportunity to be one of the stronger ones compared to other clubs

[Derek Hardballs]

You’re missing the key point that all clubs around us would be subject to similar wage restrictions.  Nobody in this division (other than those with parachute payments) will be able to pay any more. The Championship is unsustainable with the status quo.  Something has to change.

I’m not missing the point, the point is to build a squad capable of promotion AND then competing in the Prem with a core group of players like we did before will be impossible under this way of operating. Brunt, Morrison, Foster etc would have all gone and we would just start the rebuilding cycle over and over. Sure we might do a Luton but more likely we will just stagnate and go backwards over time. The amount of investment to play money ball is expensive and cannot happen as a self sustaining club at least not at the outset.

Also when we were doing well in the Prem and Championship our wage bill was very high compared to our income. It wasn’t our genius system it was the fact we offered competitive wages in the Prem and outstripped our competitors in the Championship that made us competitive. We may not have spent millions on transfer fees but our wages were very good. Now we are suggesting we can compete with low wage and low transfer fees it’s fantasy football imo.

You moaned about the club kicking the can down the road, by taking out the MSD loans.  Now the club are trying to reduce losses, by reducing wages, you’re moaning again.  

You can’t have your cake and eat it Derek 

No I didn’t I have barely mentioned the loans. I said that selling our better players solves nothing and simply meant we prolonged administration if we were not sold to a new owner. The idea under the current owners that we can become self sufficient and do anything but cling to Championship survival is naive to say the least.

All clubs in the Championship will become self-sufficient.  Our crowds and our academy provide us with every opportunity to be one of the stronger ones compared to other clubs

How many clubs are currently self sufficient in the Championship and breaking even? What timescale are clubs expected to make the transition to self sufficient? That is going to be a massive upheaval currently.

As for ourselves becoming self sufficient under the current owners… I shudder to think where that would leave us as a club, certainly not in a strong position.

[CorbsIsMagic]

Matt Slater of The Athletic now weirdly saying that although Patel is the frontrunner, that Farnell & Hearn are flying to China on Tuesday to try and close a deal.

Quotes below:

“The situation at West Bromwich Albion is even more confusing.

As first reported by The Athletic last month, there is a three-way race to buy the Championship club from Guochuan Lai, the Chinese businessman who paid £175million for a majority stake for them in 2016, when they were a Premier League side. The contenders are: a group put together by the English sports lawyer Chris Farnell, Armenian entrepreneur Roman Gevorkyan’s Noah Football Group and a bid led by Florida-based businessman Shilen Patel.

The latter is very much the choice of the club’s senior staff and also of West Brom’s main creditor, MSD Partners, the investment firm linked to American IT billionaire Michael Dell. And it would be fair to say Patel is now the frontrunner. However, Farnell’s group still believes it has the inside track with Lai, the man who is actually selling the shares, and Farnell and potential partner Alex Hearn are going to China this week to try to close their staged takeover of the club.

Lai borrowed £2million from Hearn in 2021. The loan was secured on 2.35 per cent of West Brom’s shares, with a deadline for repayment of last Thursday. That deadline, unsurprisingly, came and went without repayment and the accrued interest has raised Lai’s debt to Hearn to more than £4million.

Hearn has recently sold his main business, a domestic heating firm called Warmfront, so he does not need his money back urgently. In fact, he has recently signalled to the club that he would be happy to wait for a change of control at The Hawthorns before repayment.

But, equally, he is willing to see if Farnell can get his deal over the line and perhaps convert that loan into a minority stake. Gevorkyan, in the meantime, has been encouraged to remain in the race, as all outcomes are still possible.”


Another attempt by Farnell to get his name in the media following Patel getting ahead in the race?

[Derek Hardballs]

Matt Slater of The Athletic now weirdly saying that although Patel is the frontrunner, that Farnell & Hearn are flying to China on Tuesday to try and close a deal.

Quotes below:

“The situation at West Bromwich Albion is even more confusing.

As first reported by The Athletic last month, there is a three-way race to buy the Championship club from Guochuan Lai, the Chinese businessman who paid £175million for a majority stake for them in 2016, when they were a Premier League side. The contenders are: a group put together by the English sports lawyer Chris Farnell, Armenian entrepreneur Roman Gevorkyan’s Noah Football Group and a bid led by Florida-based businessman Shilen Patel.

The latter is very much the choice of the club’s senior staff and also of West Brom’s main creditor, MSD Partners, the investment firm linked to American IT billionaire Michael Dell. And it would be fair to say Patel is now the frontrunner. However, Farnell’s group still believes it has the inside track with Lai, the man who is actually selling the shares, and Farnell and potential partner Alex Hearn are going to China this week to try to close their staged takeover of the club.

Lai borrowed £2million from Hearn in 2021. The loan was secured on 2.35 per cent of West Brom’s shares, with a deadline for repayment of last Thursday. That deadline, unsurprisingly, came and went without repayment and the accrued interest has raised Lai’s debt to Hearn to more than £4million.

Hearn has recently sold his main business, a domestic heating firm called Warmfront, so he does not need his money back urgently. In fact, he has recently signalled to the club that he would be happy to wait for a change of control at The Hawthorns before repayment.

But, equally, he is willing to see if Farnell can get his deal over the line and perhaps convert that loan into a minority stake. Gevorkyan, in the meantime, has been encouraged to remain in the race, as all outcomes are still possible.”


Another attempt by Farnell to get his name in the media following Patel getting ahead in the race?

Erm ? great!

[Pragmatist]

I’m not missing the point, the point is to build a squad capable of promotion AND then competing in the Prem with a core group of players like we did before will be impossible under this way of operating. Brunt, Morrison, Foster etc would have all gone and we would just start the rebuilding cycle over and over. Sure we might do a Luton but more likely we will just stagnate and go backwards over time. The amount of investment to play money ball is expensive and cannot happen as a self sustaining club at least not at the outset.

Also when we were doing well in the Prem and Championship our wage bill was very high compared to our income. It wasn’t our genius system it was the fact we offered competitive wages in the Prem and outstripped our competitors in the Championship that made us competitive. We may not have spent millions on transfer fees but our wages were very good. Now we are suggesting we can compete with low wage and low transfer fees it’s fantasy football imo.

You moaned about the club kicking the can down the road, by taking out the MSD loans.  Now the club are trying to reduce losses, by reducing wages, you’re moaning again.  

You can’t have your cake and eat it Derek 

No I didn’t I have barely mentioned the loans. I said that selling our better players solves nothing and simply meant we prolonged administration if we were not sold to a new owner. The idea under the current owners that we can become self sufficient and do anything but cling to Championship survival is naive to say the least.

All clubs in the Championship will become self-sufficient.  Our crowds and our academy provide us with every opportunity to be one of the stronger ones compared to other clubs

How many clubs are currently self sufficient in the Championship and breaking even? What timescale are clubs expected to make the transition to self sufficient? That is going to be a massive upheaval currently.

As for ourselves becoming self sufficient under the current owners… I shudder to think where that would leave us as a club, certainly not in a strong position.

The answer to the first question is None, including those with parachute payments. The maximum permitted loss is £39m over 3 years, and unless owners pump in equity (maximum £24m over 3 years), the maximum loss is just £15m over 3 years.  Most  are losing £20-£25m a year.  A transition will take a couple of years but just as we are now, clubs are being very careful with these limits and hardly any transfer fees have been paid by Championship clubs since COVID.  In that sense the transition has already started, and clubs know that points deductions will happen if they don’t transition, as some found out last year. 

The objective is to make all clubs self-sufficient, regardless of who the owners are.  Many current owners wouldn’t have bought if they weren’t able to throw their tens of millions at gambling to go up, putting the clubs’ future existences at risk. The Championship is a basket case of ownership.  Nearly every Championship is in reality up for sale. Big changes are coming.

[Derek Hardballs]

You moaned about the club kicking the can down the road, by taking out the MSD loans.  Now the club are trying to reduce losses, by reducing wages, you’re moaning again.  

You can’t have your cake and eat it Derek 

No I didn’t I have barely mentioned the loans. I said that selling our better players solves nothing and simply meant we prolonged administration if we were not sold to a new owner. The idea under the current owners that we can become self sufficient and do anything but cling to Championship survival is naive to say the least.

All clubs in the Championship will become self-sufficient.  Our crowds and our academy provide us with every opportunity to be one of the stronger ones compared to other clubs

How many clubs are currently self sufficient in the Championship and breaking even? What timescale are clubs expected to make the transition to self sufficient? That is going to be a massive upheaval currently.

As for ourselves becoming self sufficient under the current owners… I shudder to think where that would leave us as a club, certainly not in a strong position.

The answer to the first question is None, including those with parachute payments. The maximum permitted loss is £39m over 3 years, and unless owners pump in equity (maximum £24m over 3 years), the maximum loss is just £15m over 3 years.  Most  are losing £20-£25m a year.  A transition will take a couple of years but just as we are now, clubs are being very careful with these limits and hardly any transfer fees have been paid by Championship clubs since COVID.  In that sense the transition has already started, and clubs know that points deductions will happen if they don’t transition, as some found out last year. 

The objective is to make all clubs self-sufficient, regardless of who the owners are.  Many current owners wouldn’t have bought if they weren’t able to throw their tens of millions at gambling to go up, putting the clubs’ future existences at risk. The Championship is a basket case of ownership.  Nearly every Championship is in reality up for sale. Big changes are coming.

Prag I’ve enjoyed the conversation, I will say that I believe a Prem 2 and or a legal challenge to the wage cap will happen before more than a handful (3-6 clubs) become self sufficient. Clubs with owners prepared to spend are already looking to find ways around the rules as I said look at Blues ‘sponsorship’ announcements. It really won’t be the level playing Or even less sloped field fans are hoping for imo.

[Malcolm Tucker]

Making the Championship self-sufficient will take a decade or more. Hardly worth talking about in the context of our immediate future.