Coming to terms with Saturday....

[WorcsWBA]

A decent enough assessment Cuzer bar your view on Ismael would have sorted them out. There was zero evidence whatsoever that things would improve. We'd had 3 months  (19 games) of playing like a lower half of the table side

I'm doing my best to move on from Val, but can't let things like this go unchallenged. As late as Dec 17th, we'd lost just 4 of 23 games and were on an unbeaten 5 match run. Of the 19 games that you mention, I can pick out 8 that were good or very good performances, even if some of them didn't get the results we would have wanted:

• Albion 3 Bristol C 0 (23 shots for 7 shots against)
  
• Albion 1 Hull 0 (17 shots for 9 shots against)
  
• Albion 0 Forest 0 (16 shots for 9 shots against) - we were looking good for a victory until Molumby was sent off
  
• Coventry 1 Albion 2 (10 shots for 12 shots against) - we deserved the win in that game
  
• Albion 1 Reading 0 (25 shots for 4 shots against) - 1-0 massacre
  
• Barnsley 0 Albion 0 (16 shots for 3 shots against) - robbed, Barnsley never had a sniff
  
• Derby 1 Albion 0 (19 shots for 3 shots against) - completely robbed
  
• Albion 3 Peterborough 0 (27 shots for 1 shot against) - despite all the booing, we played them off the park
  

The Preston and Millwall games were dire, but the lily-livered players gave up in those games and the fans' attitude had already become toxic before then, unjustifiably so IMO.

[Tambag]

Grant's one trick pony of coming off the left wing and shooting with his right foot is woeful for how much we will spend on him overal.

He is a luxury that we cannot afford the way our team is playing at the moment, but he is the only one who has scored on a regular basis this season, so the other players need to step up as well as him.

We all seem to want TGH in the team but why is there a reluctance from both managers this season for him being picked, is there something he his not doing in training ?

[Gzbaggy]

I would disagree about Grant, he has created a few chances for Robinson with clever passes, there was also a game recently where he ran back to his own goal and hit a Hoddlesque through ball half the length of the pitch. We could try Ajayi as a defensive midfielder and Grant as an attacking midfielder

[UCEbaggie]

Largely agree with Cuzer's assessment. It's difficult to find positives after such an awful second half display but the first half we were very competitive against a team that the table shows are around our level. If Grant scores that guilt edged one or one, or indeed his other chance when he was put through and tamely hit the keeper then I feel like we would have gone on and won the game. I was in the Luton end and it's funny because their supporters felt the game could have gone either way. Frankly though, as soon as the first goal went in the players largely knew they were beaten, or at least couldn't win the game. Combination of our dreadful scoring record and confidence being absolutely rock bottom.

I wouldn't be quite so critical of Bruce just yet. Think it's clear he's inherited an awful mess. Talented players like Diangana looking shadows of their best and a team already on the floor in confidence terms. He's still getting to know the players and having to experiment in real time in league games - never ideal. I do think whoever is in charge would struggle to get a tune out of this lot though. A total absence of any creativity in the middle of the park and a stinking attitude is a recipe for disaster. I don't know enough about the club to know who is at fault for the summer signings but it's very clear to me that neither Mowatt nor Molumby were any sort of upgrade on what we already had. Reach, despite his versatility is an utter waste of a squad place, wages and is denying a promising youngster a place in the team/bench. Add to that the failure to bring in a striker t the start of the season and the instability of having so many loan players filling first team spots last season and you have the all mighty cluster fuck we see before us.

[Cuzer]

A decent enough assessment Cuzer bar your view on Ismael would have sorted them out. There was zero evidence whatsoever that things would improve. We'd had 3 months  (19 games) of playing like a lower half of the table side

I'm doing my best to move on from Val, but can't let things like this go unchallenged. As late as Dec 17th, we'd lost just 4 of 23 games and were on an unbeaten 5 match run. Of the 19 games that you mention, I can pick out 8 that were good or very good performances, even if some of them didn't get the results we would have wanted:

• Albion 3 Bristol C 0 (23 shots for 7 shots against)
  
• Albion 1 Hull 0 (17 shots for 9 shots against)
  
• Albion 0 Forest 0 (16 shots for 9 shots against) - we were looking good for a victory until Molumby was sent off
  
• Coventry 1 Albion 2 (10 shots for 12 shots against) - we deserved the win in that game
  
• Albion 1 Reading 0 (25 shots for 4 shots against) - 1-0 massacre
  
• Barnsley 0 Albion 0 (16 shots for 3 shots against) - robbed, Barnsley never had a sniff
  
• Derby 1 Albion 0 (19 shots for 3 shots against) - completely robbed
  
• Albion 3 Peterborough 0 (27 shots for 1 shot against) - despite all the booing, we played them off the park
  

The Preston and Millwall games were dire, but the lily-livered players gave up in those games and the fans' attitude had already become toxic before then, unjustifiably so IMO.

Spot on this, there will always be a debate regarding Val, I'm very much with Masi from the E&Dingle, Val is on to something and I'm sure will go on and be a good and successful manager at the level he operates, shoudl he be/have been more flexible? Absolutely but he didn't have a lot of luck with us, had very little patience from the fans and in the end got thrown under the bus by this under achieving shower of a playing squad. As a fan I'm desperate Bruce gets us into the play offs but I still believe long term Val would have been worth sticking with, regardless of division we would be in next season, opiions and arseholes and all that

Cuzer

[Spandaubaggie]

A decent enough assessment Cuzer bar your view on Ismael would have sorted them out. There was zero evidence whatsoever that things would improve. We'd had 3 months  (19 games) of playing like a lower half of the table side

I'm doing my best to move on from Val, but can't let things like this go unchallenged. As late as Dec 17th, we'd lost just 4 of 23 games and were on an unbeaten 5 match run. Of the 19 games that you mention, I can pick out 8 that were good or very good performances, even if some of them didn't get the results we would have wanted:

• Albion 3 Bristol C 0 (23 shots for 7 shots against)
  
• Albion 1 Hull 0 (17 shots for 9 shots against)
  
• Albion 0 Forest 0 (16 shots for 9 shots against) - we were looking good for a victory until Molumby was sent off
  
• Coventry 1 Albion 2 (10 shots for 12 shots against) - we deserved the win in that game
  
• Albion 1 Reading 0 (25 shots for 4 shots against) - 1-0 massacre
  
• Barnsley 0 Albion 0 (16 shots for 3 shots against) - robbed, Barnsley never had a sniff
  
• Derby 1 Albion 0 (19 shots for 3 shots against) - completely robbed
  
• Albion 3 Peterborough 0 (27 shots for 1 shot against) - despite all the booing, we played them off the park
  

The Preston and Millwall games were dire, but the lily-livered players gave up in those games and the fans' attitude had already become toxic before then, unjustifiably so IMO.

Dec 17 was a lifetime ago in the championship. Simply, once we were bowled over by Stoke the wheels slowly came off. We'd got to a point where by the time he went we'd lost the plot entirely.

Anyhow, we'll beg to differ and move on.

[Cheshire East Baggie]

Morning all

Just about settled down after that abject, weak surrender against Luton at the weekend

I've read a lot on here, pretty much all I agree with, that 2nd half was up there with Preston at Home, the 2nd half at Milwall, all this 3 games into Bruce's reign, if they had enough of Val they took 7 months to let us know, that performance stank and I sincerely hope Bruce laid into them and had them into training yesterday (as has been rumoured)

Couple of observations

SJ - I've been critical of him this season but he seems way more vocal now, berating, organising, he played a part in Val going, a big part, so maybe he's stepping up now and showing a bit more passion, could have done better for the first goal mind having got a big hand on it

Furlong - Slightly better, Townsend, piss poor again

Semi - Terrible touch for a professional footballer, so sloppy on the ball

Clarke - By far and away our best centre half, bizarrely pulled

Bartley, real vote of confidence from Bruce bringing him straight back in and giving him the armband, summed up the current mood of the senior pro's with a half hearted performance and no passion or desire, his defending for the opening and game changing goal had to be seen to be believed, shocking on every level

Our midfield - Val clearly set up where the bulk of our creativity was meant to be from wide or from the front 3, he wanted a midfielder in Jan and never got it, so he realised we were short here, letting Snodgrass go and bringing nobody in was a bizarre move with Bruce already with us but it's painfully obvious we can create anything of note through the lines, Mowatt looks one paced and shot, Molumby works hard but had the ability on the ball of a semi pro player at best, Reach tries hard but is woefully short at this level, and is no more a number 10 than I am, if Bruce persists with 3-4-1-2 and he should IMO then either Grady or Robinson or Castro has to play that 10 role, Reach should be nowhere near it ever again

Grant - Don't get me started, I've said all season he's been piss poor and got shot down with people pointing to his goal record, when he was scoring, yet his play box to box again is more league one/two than Championship/Prem, such a poor footballer and another one going through the motions

Carrol - Feeling sorry for the bloke as he's clearly working harder than most with little reward or support, imagine if he got injured now!

Bruce - Thought he made some real bad calls on Saturday, taking off Clarke and leaving Semi on when booked was barmy, going 442 and changing it 5 minutes later, granted it wasn't working, was all a bit Sunday league and leaving Reach on for 90 minutes was borderline sackable on it's own, early days but we learned a lot about him as he did the players Saturday, ideally don't want to see such a mess from either of them ever again

I've made it clear I believe Val would have sorted this shower out, Bruce has come in and 3 games in he's gone full on Val and told them some home truths, both managers can't be wrong, some of these wankers need to step up and show something on Tuesday or the atmosphere will be toxic v Swansea should we not get a result

Cuzer

I don't see the Matt Clarke that you see. I agree about Bartley (who may not be fully fit) and Ajayi, although he wasn't too bad on Saturday. But Clarke was involved in a couple of truly calamitous moments in the first half, then stood still and watched while Luton scored. Had there been a rebound, there were three unmarked players who'd out-wrestled the static Clarke. I don't think Bruce sees a good defender there and nor do I.

Kipre was unlucky to be dropped and O'Shea really must play as soon as possible. Clarke won't be signed permanently IMO.

Strange that Snods was released while the wheels of Ismael's dismissal were already in motion. He has more creativity than most of ours.

[SW4Baggie]

A decent enough assessment Cuzer bar your view on Ismael would have sorted them out. There was zero evidence whatsoever that things would improve. We'd had 3 months  (19 games) of playing like a lower half of the table side

I'm doing my best to move on from Val, but can't let things like this go unchallenged. As late as Dec 17th, we'd lost just 4 of 23 games and were on an unbeaten 5 match run. Of the 19 games that you mention, I can pick out 8 that were good or very good performances, even if some of them didn't get the results we would have wanted:

• Albion 3 Bristol C 0 (23 shots for 7 shots against)
  
• Albion 1 Hull 0 (17 shots for 9 shots against)
  
• Albion 0 Forest 0 (16 shots for 9 shots against) - we were looking good for a victory until Molumby was sent off
  
• Coventry 1 Albion 2 (10 shots for 12 shots against) - we deserved the win in that game
  
• Albion 1 Reading 0 (25 shots for 4 shots against) - 1-0 massacre
  
• Barnsley 0 Albion 0 (16 shots for 3 shots against) - robbed, Barnsley never had a sniff
  
• Derby 1 Albion 0 (19 shots for 3 shots against) - completely robbed
  
• Albion 3 Peterborough 0 (27 shots for 1 shot against) - despite all the booing, we played them off the park
  

The Preston and Millwall games were dire, but the lily-livered players gave up in those games and the fans' attitude had already become toxic before then, unjustifiably so IMO.

Spot on this, there will always be a debate regarding Val, I'm very much with Masi from the E&Dingle, Val is on to something and I'm sure will go on and be a good and successful manager at the level he operates, shoudl he be/have been more flexible? Absolutely but he didn't have a lot of luck with us, had very little patience from the fans and in the end got thrown under the bus by this under achieving shower of a playing squad. As a fan I'm desperate Bruce gets us into the play offs but I still believe long term Val would have been worth sticking with, regardless of division we would be in next season, opiions and arseholes and all that

Cuzer

This is exactly where I'm at too - I think Val would have sorted us out over the long term, but we didn't have the patience as a club or fanbase, and he didn't show enough flexibility or adaptability to buy more time. 

Of the 3 games Bruce has served up so far, the vast majority of the football and performances have been worse than what Val showed, but his reputation and persona is allowing him more slack. 

In the long run Val will do better out of this experience than we will unfortunately, we just have to hope Dike is his legacy and leaves us with a very saleable future asset that we can sell for significantly under value in a couple years because he wants to move to Saudi.

[BoingBoing2022]

A decent enough assessment Cuzer bar your view on Ismael would have sorted them out. There was zero evidence whatsoever that things would improve. We'd had 3 months  (19 games) of playing like a lower half of the table side and he finally stuck the knife in himself by alienating Johnstone and completely losing the dressing room before that shocker v Preston.
His man management appeared utterly woeful. Regardless of our feelings of some of the squad he needed them on his side or at least blooding the youngsters. There was nothing to show optimism.
Bruce will need to be allowed time to sort this lot out- I don't think the vast majority of us believed we could have a season this poor.

The Players saw that the fans had turned on Ismael both in the Stadium & on Social Media and downed tools

[Cuzer]

Morning all

Just about settled down after that abject, weak surrender against Luton at the weekend

I've read a lot on here, pretty much all I agree with, that 2nd half was up there with Preston at Home, the 2nd half at Milwall, all this 3 games into Bruce's reign, if they had enough of Val they took 7 months to let us know, that performance stank and I sincerely hope Bruce laid into them and had them into training yesterday (as has been rumoured)

Couple of observations

SJ - I've been critical of him this season but he seems way more vocal now, berating, organising, he played a part in Val going, a big part, so maybe he's stepping up now and showing a bit more passion, could have done better for the first goal mind having got a big hand on it

Furlong - Slightly better, Townsend, piss poor again

Semi - Terrible touch for a professional footballer, so sloppy on the ball

Clarke - By far and away our best centre half, bizarrely pulled

Bartley, real vote of confidence from Bruce bringing him straight back in and giving him the armband, summed up the current mood of the senior pro's with a half hearted performance and no passion or desire, his defending for the opening and game changing goal had to be seen to be believed, shocking on every level

Our midfield - Val clearly set up where the bulk of our creativity was meant to be from wide or from the front 3, he wanted a midfielder in Jan and never got it, so he realised we were short here, letting Snodgrass go and bringing nobody in was a bizarre move with Bruce already with us but it's painfully obvious we can create anything of note through the lines, Mowatt looks one paced and shot, Molumby works hard but had the ability on the ball of a semi pro player at best, Reach tries hard but is woefully short at this level, and is no more a number 10 than I am, if Bruce persists with 3-4-1-2 and he should IMO then either Grady or Robinson or Castro has to play that 10 role, Reach should be nowhere near it ever again

Grant - Don't get me started, I've said all season he's been piss poor and got shot down with people pointing to his goal record, when he was scoring, yet his play box to box again is more league one/two than Championship/Prem, such a poor footballer and another one going through the motions

Carrol - Feeling sorry for the bloke as he's clearly working harder than most with little reward or support, imagine if he got injured now!

Bruce - Thought he made some real bad calls on Saturday, taking off Clarke and leaving Semi on when booked was barmy, going 442 and changing it 5 minutes later, granted it wasn't working, was all a bit Sunday league and leaving Reach on for 90 minutes was borderline sackable on it's own, early days but we learned a lot about him as he did the players Saturday, ideally don't want to see such a mess from either of them ever again

I've made it clear I believe Val would have sorted this shower out, Bruce has come in and 3 games in he's gone full on Val and told them some home truths, both managers can't be wrong, some of these wankers need to step up and show something on Tuesday or the atmosphere will be toxic v Swansea should we not get a result

Cuzer

I don't see the Matt Clarke that you see. I agree about Bartley (who may not be fully fit) and Ajayi, although he wasn't too bad on Saturday. But Clarke was involved in a couple of truly calamitous moments in the first half, then stood still and watched while Luton scored. Had there been a rebound, there were three unmarked players who'd out-wrestled the static Clarke. I don't think Bruce sees a good defender there and nor do I.

Kipre was unlucky to be dropped and O'Shea really must play as soon as possible. Clarke won't be signed permanently IMO.

Strange that Snods was released while the wheels of Ismael's dismissal were already in motion. He has more creativity than most of ours.

Yes, clearly on a different page re Clarke, the first goal was all the fault of Bartley, shocking defending by a player with his experience, and a so called leader and organiser, proper schoolboy stuff

Clarke for me has been our best defender all season, also tries to get forward and create space for Townsend

Kipre was decent and I like him but was terrible v PNE and Milwall and has clearly paid the price for the shift to what was a back four

Agree re O'Shea but can only see him playing on the right really

Cuzer