The Return of Brexit

[Jack Halford]

So basically the Leamington Spa games industry has grown whilst in the EU, potentially because of EU funding and freedom of movement for gaming specialists to move here, and has benefitted from UK state aid through Tax relief (hold on I thought we couldn't make our own rules!) and will be free to expand further out of the EU (or possibly it would make no difference and we could have had this anyway as part of the EU)

It appears that Jack's argument is that an industry that would have grown as part of the EU will grow outside of the EU - therefore no reason to have left for this industry.

No, the company that I know that has grown from 20 to over 100 employees in 2 years has not grown because of any EU funding or UK state aid.

My argument is that this sector will grow just as well if not better outside the EU.

But you have nothing solid on that just gut feeling? When I was at Warwickshire CC there was a big drive to obtain ERDF funding which set the foundations for many businesses in the region. My point is, unless you have some better knowledge on the new funding or regulations from the UK govt, that any growth would probably have been the same in or out of the EU.

Baggie1, yes I agree that ERDF funding was used by businesses.

As for new funding the British Business Bank has been set up to fund start ups which will be matched by private investors.

He’s the flip side, would the EU grants have stayed as they are if we had remained?

[JOK]

So what would these gun boats do? Shout stop it? Board the boats and arrest them? Or is this just pointless posturing to play to the populist core?

They aren't sending gunboats, they're sending offshore patrol vessels that are already used to inspect fishing vessels in the UK EEZ and the Navy is doing it because we don't have a civil coastguard.
Complete non-story

So pointless sabre rattling reporting by the usual newspapers then.

 
The Usual Newspapers?  Such as the Independent and Guardian ! Not so much Sabre rattling as Scare mongering. And your favourite “reputable” source, Reuters’ headline was.
‘Britain’s navy to protect fishing waters in case of no-deal’. Notice the use of  the word ‘Protect’ and no use of the evocative word 'Gunboat'.

But it’s a good job the EU protects the environment and international law isn’t it?
“European Super Trawlers in U.K. marine protected areas.”
“their supersized nets – up to a mile long – mean bycatch includes dolphins, porpoises and seals.”
“with supertrawler fishing time double what it was for the whole of 2019 in just the first six months of 2020.”
 
“Our Government cannot continue to allow supertrawlers to fish with ever increasing intensity in parts of our waters that are supposed to be protected.” (Greenpeace) {a reputable charity ! }
https://www.independent.co.uk/environmen...69086.html

From the Mail... Gunboats are being prepared for any 'punch-up' with 'stormy' French fishermen as last-minute negotiations with the EU rumble on. 

 ‘Gun boats’ 
Gun boats - Mail
Gun Boat 2 - Express 
Even as far back as 2018 Gun Boats 3 - Telegraph

 So? The mirror, Guardian, Independent and the BBC all used similar headlines so why infer that it was just your reviled ‘Right Wing’ press? That was my point.

No comment, then, on E.U. fishing boats ruining the environment and over fishing barely sustainable fish stocks whilst killing dolphins, seals, porpoises and other species as a by-product of their selfish actions? No, don’t suppose you can bring yourself to even mildly criticise your Shangri-La?

Shouldn’t the U.K. be allowed to protect it’s territorial limit? Shouldn’t the U.K. protect fish stocks?  After all, the “reputable” Reuters  says that’s what we would be doing and Greenpeace says that’s exactly what we should do.

[Derek Hardballs]

They aren't sending gunboats, they're sending offshore patrol vessels that are already used to inspect fishing vessels in the UK EEZ and the Navy is doing it because we don't have a civil coastguard.
Complete non-story

So pointless sabre rattling reporting by the usual newspapers then.

 
The Usual Newspapers?  Such as the Independent and Guardian ! Not so much Sabre rattling as Scare mongering. And your favourite “reputable” source, Reuters’ headline was.
‘Britain’s navy to protect fishing waters in case of no-deal’. Notice the use of  the word ‘Protect’ and no use of the evocative word 'Gunboat'.

But it’s a good job the EU protects the environment and international law isn’t it?
“European Super Trawlers in U.K. marine protected areas.”
“their supersized nets – up to a mile long – mean bycatch includes dolphins, porpoises and seals.”
“with supertrawler fishing time double what it was for the whole of 2019 in just the first six months of 2020.”
 
“Our Government cannot continue to allow supertrawlers to fish with ever increasing intensity in parts of our waters that are supposed to be protected.” (Greenpeace) {a reputable charity ! }
https://www.independent.co.uk/environmen...69086.html

From the Mail... Gunboats are being prepared for any 'punch-up' with 'stormy' French fishermen as last-minute negotiations with the EU rumble on. 

 ‘Gun boats’ 
Gun boats - Mail
Gun Boat 2 - Express 
Even as far back as 2018 Gun Boats 3 - Telegraph

 So? The mirror, Guardian, Independent and the BBC all used similar headlines so why infer that it was just your reviled ‘Right Wing’ press? That was my point.

No comment, then, on E.U. fishing boats ruining the environment and over fishing barely sustainable fish stocks whilst killing dolphins, seals, porpoises and other species as a by-product of their selfish actions? No, don’t suppose you can bring yourself to even mildly criticise your Shangri-La?

Shouldn’t the U.K. be allowed to protect it’s territorial limit? Shouldn’t the U.K. protect fish stocks?  After all, the “reputable” Reuters  says that’s what we would be doing and Greenpeace says that’s exactly what we should do.

Yes we should be protecting the environment and the best way to do that is to negotiate with our near neighbours to stop using such destructive tactics. Up until now we could have done this as a member of the EU where decisions could be discussed and made law. I believe a certain Mr Farage was part of the group who informed decisions on fishing. It’s a shame he turned up to was it one meeting? Perhaps he could have tried to change things for the better whilst there picking up his nice fat pension? If only fish were cycle lanes! 

The posturing / leak to the press regarding sending in the Navy (although I imagine they are there now anyway) will appeal to those it was intended to appeal to but it won’t solve anything it will just exasperate the situation. What do you think for example the French fishermen will do? Meekly accept the situation or blockade ports such as Calais? Diplomatic solutions are the best way to solve problems like this not ahem gun boat diplomacy

[Ossian]

We'll just need to be selective about who we upset, and how.

Luxembourg, for example, poses a negligible naval threat.

[Protheroe]

I'll say one last thing on this issue (!).

Has no one noticed how much of our industry has been decimated whilst we've been in the EU?

I suppose that's all Thatcher's fault.

Has no one noticed how Japanese industry has been decimated whilst we've been in the EU?

Has no one noticed how American industry has been decimated whilst we've been in the EU?

It's almost like there has been a global shift towards high tech manufacturing and industrial R&D in highly developed nations since the 1970s, with high volume but low skilled manufacturing being exported to China and India...

Precisely. And this is the crucial point, developed economies will always need to adapt to changing economic reality. The EU wishes to stifle this through a policy of overt protectionism and the CET (and still wishes the UK to participate in such foolishness) . The US under Trump has attempted to turn back the tide with China in a similar manner and gets pelters (which the EU escapes, strangely).

This is ultimately futile, and the main effect will usually be on consumers who either pay more for products and services or more through their taxes to subsidise lifettyle businesses like French agriculture. Sclerotic productivity and low growth are the hallmarks of many EU countries. The UK cannot be tied to that.

---

Try again Proth, you’re getting more and more desperate and showing how little you actually know at the same time, it’s priceless. It’s one of those shit or bust moments, do you admit leaving is a mistake or make yourself look a fanatical idiot as you get more and more desperate to blame the EU for something, anything, oh god surely there’s some way out of this

I sense you've misunderstood my point.

I also worked on ERDF funded coalfield regen in Warwickshire & Staffordshire by the way, a long long time ago. It appears to me that a lot of our cash was spunked on areas that really didn't it.

[Borin' Baggie]

I'll say one last thing on this issue (!).

Has no one noticed how much of our industry has been decimated whilst we've been in the EU?

I suppose that's all Thatcher's fault.

Has no one noticed how Japanese industry has been decimated whilst we've been in the EU?

Has no one noticed how American industry has been decimated whilst we've been in the EU?

It's almost like there has been a global shift towards high tech manufacturing and industrial R&D in highly developed nations since the 1970s, with high volume but low skilled manufacturing being exported to China and India...

Precisely. And this is the crucial point, developed economies will always need to adapt to changing economic reality. The EU wishes to stifle this through a policy of overt protectionism and the CET (and still wishes the UK to participate in such foolishness) . The US under Trump has attempted to turn back the tide with China in a similar manner and gets pelters (which the EU escapes, strangely).

This is ultimately futile, and the main effect will usually be on consumers who either pay more for products and services or more through their taxes to subsidise lifettyle businesses like French agriculture. Sclerotic productivity and low growth are the hallmarks of many EU countries. The UK cannot be tied to that.

Except the reality is that being within the EU does not prevent economies from adapting, as attested by EU economies adapting including the UK as EU members. Our economy is totally different I 2020 than it was in 1970.

The CET is about eliminating non-tariff barriers, the imposition of which will increase costs for goods and services which will result in things costing more next month as I have already explained with respect to food. Consumers will not benefit, denying this is denying reality.

The US is the biggest protectionist nation in the world and even restricts companies from trading outside their state and then country before being able to trade with foreign nations.

[JOK]

 

Yes we should be protecting the environment and the best way to do that is to negotiate with our near neighbours to stop using such destructive tactics. Up until now we could have done this as a member of the EU where decisions could be discussed and made law. I believe a certain Mr Farage was part of the group who informed decisions on fishing. It’s a shame he turned up to was it one meeting? Perhaps he could have tried to change things for the better whilst there picking up his nice fat pension? If only fish were cycle lanes! 

The posturing / leak to the press regarding sending in the Navy (although I imagine they are there now anyway) will appeal to those it was intended to appeal to but it won’t solve anything it will just exasperate the situation. What do you think for example the French fishermen will do? Meekly accept the situation or blockade ports such as Calais? Diplomatic solutions are the best way to solve problems like this not ahem gun boat diplomacy

Yes, let’s negotiate. That’s the stock answer; ‘It would be easier to change things from within’. Except we’ve had, nigh on, 50 years to try and change things. Cameron found out how willing the Junta are to improve things. We’ve had 47 years since the CFP was introduced to sort it out but it gets worse. What makes you think it will ever be sorted? Poland and Hungary are showing how good, compliant EU members they are.
 Under the CFP, it  allowed for those who Traditionally fished in certain waters and issued quotas. Latvia, Poland and Estonia, some of the biggest sea rapists, did not traditionally fish in British waters in 1973 when the CFP was introduced so how did they get a quota?
 
 “European Trawlers are Destroying the Oceans.” Headline of a report by a “reputable” Environmental group.
The EU gets around its massive over fishing by using Flags of convenience and offloading over catches in non-EU countries. Very environmentally responsible of them! Why have they allowed such carnage to continue?
Given that we are out of the EU, should we be allowed to protect our waters? It is up to the French authorities to enforce the rule of law on it’s citizens.
 
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-pinching-our-fish/
 
https://eu.oceana.org/sites/default/files/reports/european_trawlers_destroying_oceans.pdf

[Protheroe]

Lump on a 'thin' deal.

[Loanee]

Massive queues of lorries at British & french borders - is this one of the benefits of brexit?

[The liquidator]

As long as you ain't in the que don't worry about it.