UK Covid death toll

[baggy1]

Nobody has ever said it can be controlled, it is about containing it until we get a vaccine. Less measures = less containment

And looking at your points in more detail - you seem to have some bizarre theory that excess deaths can be attributed to one cause or another. This, allied with you use of graphs that you don't understand or in most cases are simply wrong, really highlights how little you understand what is happening. You seem to think that there is no correlation between excess deaths in week 44 (1,481) and reported covid deaths in that same week by date of death (2,117) - those two figures are basically saying we have over 2,000 people who have died within 28 days of having a virus that is killing people and amazingly we have about 1,500 more people that have died this year than the average and there is a virus going around that wasn't here before. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

Billy I've really tried to engage you to discuss points but your theory that this is some form of worldwide governmental control with a plan is simply bonkers. Governments are doing the best that can to contain a virus, some are doing it better than others because they are actually good at their jobs, some are failing because they are shit at it.

And as for your stance on wearing masks - grow up, what harm is it doing by wearing a mask. Sweden has had the worst outcome of all Nordic nations because they didn't put tougher measures in place, they are now addressing that by implementing them. And as for Argentina - they had few cases at the start with a strict lockdown but those cases rose when the restrictions eased.

And no I don't have a mathematical formula to show that this way is best, but what i do know is that this virus is spreading as shown through hospitalisations and it is killing more people than normal as shown through excess deaths.

Again WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK - do you know they all died of covid or had it mentioned on the death certificate within 28days of a positive test? And where have all the flu deaths gone. Oh yes we've cured it. But the PCR test we can't talk about because it's not important. What a load of bollocks.

I'm not wearing a mask makes no difference to anyone else (and if I had actual symptoms I wouldn't go out) and as far as I'm concerned it affects my health more so don't tell me to grow up sunshine. Never was a useful method for stopping transmission - unless you're going against years of WHO research and their guidance as per Oct 2019. But you've become conned and locked it and Chinese. Oh well

Your stance on Sweden is bizarre. Your follow up on Argentina so far wide of the mark. I'll give you another Peru.

I've never denied the awful amount of deaths we've had. All I've asked for is you to engage on the topic of whether since June current measures have been net beneficial to society in general. You've always dodged it. The fact that the average age of Covid deaths is higher than the average age of total deaths should tell you how to answer that question.

I wouldn't mind but I've shown you where every slide that you've cut and paste from twitter as evidence is wrong. Not simply an opinion but actually wrong with manipulated data, or shortened timelines.

You simply have no solution apart from let everyone get on and if people need to isolate then they can. You ignore the fact that hospitalisations and deaths have risen above normal since schools and colleges have been back, you ignore that there are more people dying than normal - you even deny that it is related to covid, it's simply bizarre. Do you think that the increased socialising has anything to do with increased spread shown in increased hospitalisations and increased deaths.

And what has age got to do with anything - we know that this impacts on the over 65s more than any other age group but that is 12M people, what should they do when covid is killing 1 in 200 of them, should they all isolate, with their carers, and the nursing staff that treat them, and all of those related families? We're probably up to at least 40% of the population there.

Sweden is pretty straightforward - they originally put minimal restrictions in place, they've changed that for some reason. Maybe because they have the worst death figures for the Nordic countries.

You are denying the awful deaths now by questioning, despite all of the evidence, that they are covid. And by ignoring that simple fact you and your stupid ignorance will cause more deaths. I'm not dodging anything - do you think that people will continue normally if we switched off restrictions, no they won't. And people are the economy, dead people don't spend money, 95% of people won't risk going out because of the obvious to everyone apart from a few points, businesses will suffer with absenteeism because of illness. 

Can I suggest one simple task for you to help the wider community with - go to your local hospital and offer to volunteer, you can then see for yourself what is happening because al of the research that you and the missus are doing into everything and more means that you are missing the big fucking picture.

[Baggie Rick]

Nor are you. I'm lucky enough to have a wife who works in pharma and has access to everything and more from both sides of this sordid equation from vaccine trials, epidemiology, testing, local pharmacists, US, UK and German research.

I've read it all and whilst no expert, never claimed I was one, there's no way I'm.going to let things just roll on as they are wihout a fight. You may be happy with the concept of treat 1 disease at any cost but I'm not. You may be comfortable spending billions of pounds on measures never proven to be any worth in a pandemic situation. .I'll fight for my family's future as hard as I can. The utter drivel and bollocks I hear is phenomenal. This bored no exception.

My hubris, call it that if you want, I couldn't much care, is nothing to the damage being done in the name of health and science.

You keep supping at the trough of corruption and fraud I couldnt give a shit that's your perogative but like many on here you won't shut me up I'll keep countering.

I guess the missing 1000 dental cancer referall patients doesn't bother you either. As long as you can take Boris's vaccine you'll be happy and to the bonfire with the rest.

Shame on you I say.

Just because Karen works in the local LLoyds Pharmacy, that hardly makes you an expert, the more you drone on the madder you sound.
Still, I've good contact for foil, I'll PM you the details.

[Derek Hardballs]

Nobody has ever said it can be controlled, it is about containing it until we get a vaccine. Less measures = less containment

And looking at your points in more detail - you seem to have some bizarre theory that excess deaths can be attributed to one cause or another. This, allied with you use of graphs that you don't understand or in most cases are simply wrong, really highlights how little you understand what is happening. You seem to think that there is no correlation between excess deaths in week 44 (1,481) and reported covid deaths in that same week by date of death (2,117) - those two figures are basically saying we have over 2,000 people who have died within 28 days of having a virus that is killing people and amazingly we have about 1,500 more people that have died this year than the average and there is a virus going around that wasn't here before. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

Billy I've really tried to engage you to discuss points but your theory that this is some form of worldwide governmental control with a plan is simply bonkers. Governments are doing the best that can to contain a virus, some are doing it better than others because they are actually good at their jobs, some are failing because they are shit at it.

And as for your stance on wearing masks - grow up, what harm is it doing by wearing a mask. Sweden has had the worst outcome of all Nordic nations because they didn't put tougher measures in place, they are now addressing that by implementing them. And as for Argentina - they had few cases at the start with a strict lockdown but those cases rose when the restrictions eased.

And no I don't have a mathematical formula to show that this way is best, but what i do know is that this virus is spreading as shown through hospitalisations and it is killing more people than normal as shown through excess deaths.

Again WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK - do you know they all died of covid or had it mentioned on the death certificate within 28days of a positive test? And where have all the flu deaths gone. Oh yes we've cured it. But the PCR test we can't talk about because it's not important. What a load of bollocks.

I'm not wearing a mask makes no difference to anyone else (and if I had actual symptoms I wouldn't go out) and as far as I'm concerned it affects my health more so don't tell me to grow up sunshine. Never was a useful method for stopping transmission - unless you're going against years of WHO research and their guidance as per Oct 2019. But you've become conned and locked it and Chinese. Oh well

Your stance on Sweden is bizarre. Your follow up on Argentina so far wide of the mark. I'll give you another Peru.

I've never denied the awful amount of deaths we've had. All I've asked for is you to engage on the topic of whether since June current measures have been net beneficial to society in general. You've always dodged it. The fact that the average age of Covid deaths is higher than the average age of total deaths should tell you how to answer that question.

I wouldn't mind but I've shown you where every slide that you've cut and paste from twitter as evidence is wrong. Not simply an opinion but actually wrong with manipulated data, or shortened timelines.

You simply have no solution apart from let everyone get on and if people need to isolate then they can. You ignore the fact that hospitalisations and deaths have risen above normal since schools and colleges have been back, you ignore that there are more people dying than normal - you even deny that it is related to covid, it's simply bizarre. Do you think that the increased socialising has anything to do with increased spread shown in increased hospitalisations and increased deaths.

And what has age got to do with anything - we know that this impacts on the over 65s more than any other age group but that is 12M people, what should they do when covid is killing 1 in 200 of them, should they all isolate, with their carers, and the nursing staff that treat them, and all of those related families? We're probably up to at least 40% of the population there.

Sweden is pretty straightforward - they originally put minimal restrictions in place, they've changed that for some reason. Maybe because they have the worst death figures for the Nordic countries.

You are denying the awful deaths now by questioning, despite all of the evidence, that they are covid. And by ignoring that simple fact you and your stupid ignorance will cause more deaths. I'm not dodging anything - do you think that people will continue normally if we switched off restrictions, no they won't. And people are the economy, dead people don't spend money, 95% of people won't risk going out because of the obvious to everyone apart from a few points, businesses will suffer with absenteeism because of illness. 

Can I suggest one simple task for you to help the wider community with - go to your local hospital and offer to volunteer, you can then see for yourself what is happening because al of the research that you and the missus are doing into everything and more means that you are missing the big fucking picture.

I admire your determination B1 but it’s...

[baggy1]

I’ve given up now Dekka, in normal times as we’ve had from june to sept there is scope for discussion but at the moment with what’s happening it’s just dangerous.

[baggiebuckster]

How effective will 'the vaccine' need to be then for this to be controlled?

You just stated that schools and colleges coincided with the upturn yet those are still functioning. Will we need to vaccinate our children then seeing as they are spreading it?

Will everyone need to be vaccinated?

Will the level of immunity from the vaccine need to be over 90%? What if it is only 50% like the flu jab? If we get a vaccine then how many Covid deaths can we tolerate before we stop the social distancing and masks etc?

How long can we go in like this? Until the money for furlough runs out for those lucky enough to get it? Or until many self employed people see their businesses disappear?

These are all valid questions and for some people make a hell of a difference to their lives. I would be happy picking up furlough and 'waiting it out in the hope that a super vaccine appears'. Sadly instead I am desperately trying to scramble around doing any job to bring a few quid in whilst my missus sees her business fall apart.

[baggy1]

Vaccinate the older generation and the vulnerable and, if it’s effective, then that solves the vast majority of this problem. The rest of us can either vaccinate or get immunity if we are healthy enough.

[Malcolm Tucker]

Cheers for the stats B1. Good for those of us with an interest in them but not enough to bother looking it up ourselves.

[Borin' Baggie]

Cheers for the stats B1. Good for those of us with an interest in them but not enough to bother looking it up ourselves.

Just make sure you check the maths, lest you make a stupid mistake like this idiot.

https://twitter.com/toadmeister/status/1...3896420354

[Derek Hardballs]

The language sounds very similar to some posters, let’s hope the maths is better. I expect all the Diane Abbott type jokes from the usual suspects on here.

[baggy1]

The frustrating thing is that there are so many accounts on twitter that pump out false info which then becomes 'the truth' because so many people say it. A good example is a slide that Billy put up about comparative deaths which have been adjusted for population growth - that, in theory, is sound logic. I searched for the slide and it came from an account on twitter (Jon the stats guy) so I asked him twice how he had calculated the adjustment to check the logic - no answer so I did my own calculations and he had increased the figure by a % that was way over the average population growth figures. It also appears that he regularly gets his tweets blocked by twitter for misinformation so he tells his followers to retweet quickly to get the message out there. These people simply lie and gullible people believe it to be the truth and spread it as fact - that is simply dangerous.