Following the science?
#51
(06-03-2020, 10:54 AM)Protheroe Wrote:
(06-03-2020, 08:49 AM)baggy1 Wrote: So your argument is that two of the worst death rates in Europe did similar things by not locking down hard enough or early enough. But you appear to be phrasing it to say that we got to the same point as Sweden when we could have done that without locking down at all. FFS

No. My argument is that our ridiculously draconian lockdown has acheived no better results than Sweden's liberal approach.

Like it or not "the science" didn't urge an early Lockdown, so we didn't Lockdown. Individuals were perfectly at liberty to stay at home, but by and large they preferred not to live in fear and didn't until they were told to.

I see we're getting the same stage on this board as we did about the banks being "saved". I argued, and still do that RBS & Lloyds should have been smashed to pieces whilst protecting individual depositors. The method of "saving the banks" if you will.

We're at odds over the method of "saving the NHS". I don't believe the long term costs to our society will be worth it. Many of you do, that's fine.

But I was right about the banks....


Another point of view was that you were totally wrong about the banks.

The idea that you could have let 50% of the High Street banks go to the wall and there wouldn't have been some serious economic chaos is for the birds.
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#52
(06-03-2020, 12:22 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote: The idea that you could have let 50% of the High Street banks go to the wall and there wouldn't have been some serious economic chaos is for the birds.

Christ, it's the same when we discuss the NHS on here, it's either one extreme (UK) or the other (US).

Do you not think the complete debasement of the concept of sound money and risk is serious economic chaos?

The new economic chaos we're about to find ourselves in will build on the economic chaos we've been in for a decade already - and will have exactly the same detrimental effects as the stupidity of nations (and gullibillity of subjects) worldwide in 2008/09:

Zero interest rates
Suppressed wages
Massive and growing pensions black holes
Asset price inflation beyond all fundamental logic
Housing affordbility for anyone without equity
Huge government debt

There were perfectly reasonable and legitimate ways to protect depositors whilst letting the market punish banks for their largesse. I'm sorry if you're all so blinkered that you think the only option was Brown's underwriting of the commercial sector with your kids and grandkids future.

Like I said in 2009 - #BuyGold before they make it illegal for you to hold it. It's the only store of value left in the world.

(06-03-2020, 01:34 PM)baggy1 Wrote: Open another thread on the topic if you're bored of this discussion.

The one on Gold is enough.

https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/

Buy coins, to save on CGT.
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#53
(06-03-2020, 01:28 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(06-03-2020, 12:22 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote: The idea that you could have let 50% of the High Street banks go to the wall and there wouldn't have been some serious economic chaos is for the birds.

Christ, it's the same when we discuss the NHS on here, it's either one extreme (UK) or the other (US).

Do you not think the complete debasement of the concept of sound money and risk is serious economic chaos?

The new economic chaos we're about to find ourselves in will build on the economic chaos we've been in for a decade already - and will have exactly the same detrimental effects as the stupidity of nations (and gullibillity of subjects) worldwide in 2008/09:

Zero interest rates
Suppressed wages
Massive and growing pensions black holes
Asset price inflation beyond all fundamental logic
Housing affordbility for anyone without equity
Huge government debt

There were perfectly reasonable and legitimate ways to protect depositors whilst letting the market punish banks for their largesse. I'm sorry if you're all so blinkered that you think the only option was Brown's underwriting of the commercial sector with your kids and grandkids future.

Like I said in 2009 - #BuyGold before they make it illegal for you to hold it. It's the only store of value left in the world.

Open another thread on the topic if you're bored of this discussion
Reply
#54
(06-03-2020, 01:28 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(06-03-2020, 12:22 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote: The idea that you could have let 50% of the High Street banks go to the wall and there wouldn't have been some serious economic chaos is for the birds.

Christ, it's the same when we discuss the NHS on here, it's either one extreme (UK) or the other (US).

The one where you fail to acknowledge that the best European healthcare systems are in countries that have adopted the Beveridge model which was conceived to help implement the NHS in the first place, before bringing up Germany thinking their system is why they have better health outcomes than us instead of their level of public funding and conveniently ignoring the fact that Ireland has the same Bismarck system and it's worse than the NHS?

The grown-up discussion on reforming our healthcare system ended when that idiot Andrew Lansley decided to go for a purely ideological approach in addressing our health system instead of doing the sensible thing which was looking at what plans Lib Dem ministers, predominantly David Laws who was sidelined by Cameron to the bloody DfE, drew up for the Orange Book (actually based on our own needs as a country) and completely fucked it up, putting the trusts in £13bn in debt for no reason then reversing half of the reforms when it was apparent it was a shit idea, ultimately showing that the Conservative conversation on healthcare reform was not to be trusted.
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#55
Another outlier - clearly. Or perhaps we should really open the schools.

https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content...21.2000903
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#56
You see that's your problem, no-one said they were outliers.

So that you are clear on my position - The figures suggest that the under 65s are at a very small risk of dying from this disease, the figures for catching it aren't as measured because we have no measuring system. Therefore if we had a serious solution to protecting the older and more frail whilst we reopened society then I'd be all for it, but we don't.

Your wonderfully modern and hip party are basically floundering around trying to see what works, many stable doors being locked across the piste. There is no plan, and never has been all the way through. There has been no effective leadership and so many errors along the way which will obviously get blamed on the scientists because, as we know, Boris doesn't say sorry, ever.

We will soon be up to 60,000 deaths in an older age group of about 12M, that's 0.5% of that demographic. As was said on the news last night, if that was our children we would be screaming for something to be done. We need to be able to release the lockdown without wiping another 50,000 old folk - the actions (or inactions) of the government have made that almost impossible
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#57
(06-05-2020, 02:51 PM)baggy1 Wrote: You see that's your problem, no-one said they were outliers.

So that you are clear on my position - The figures suggest that the under 65s are at a very small risk of dying from this disease, the figures for catching it aren't as measured because we have no measuring system. Therefore if we had a serious solution to protecting the older and more frail whilst we reopened society then I'd be all for it, but we don't.

Your wonderfully modern and hip party are basically floundering around trying to see what works, many stable doors being locked across the piste. There is no plan, and never has been all the way through. There has been no effective leadership and so many errors along the way which will obviously get blamed on the scientists because, as we know, Boris doesn't say sorry, ever.

We will soon be up to 60,000 deaths in an older age group of about 12M, that's 0.5% of that demographic. As was said on the news last night, if that was our children we would be screaming for something to be done. We need to be able to release the lockdown without wiping another 50,000 old folk - the actions (or inactions) of the government have made that almost impossible

You seem to be under the impression that I support the government in their handling of this, I don't.

But I also see no prospect of a "second wave" from any of the those countries who've relaxed lockdown, or indeed never had it in the first place.
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#58
That damn draconian lockdown - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52968523

Imperial college good enough for you Proth?
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#59
Open the pubs
Open the gates to the football
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#60
(06-09-2020, 01:23 PM)baggy1 Wrote: That damn draconian lockdown - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52968523

Imperial college good enough for you Proth?

No. Once again, the choice was not and is not between either extreme.
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