Prit awful

[Protheroe]

The civil service are fast becoming another target for the Government to blame for the ills of the world, and an easy one to has they cannot go public with their point of view. 

The civil service is the greatest impediment to change in this country. Particularly in the current circumstances.

It would be the same if Labour were in office.

[HeathAyIt]

The civil service are fast becoming another target for the Government to blame for the ills of the world, and an easy one to has they cannot go public with their point of view. 

The civil service is the greatest impediment to change in this country. Particularly in the current circumstances.

It would be the same if Labour were in office.

What absolute load of bollocks

[Shabby Russian]

The civil service are fast becoming another target for the Government to blame for the ills of the world, and an easy one to has they cannot go public with their point of view. 

The civil service is the greatest impediment to change in this country. Particularly in the current circumstances.

It would be the same if Labour were in office.

Really can't agree with this. Particularly with regard to The Home Office who do not seem to have a history of standing in the way of  Government policy - from Labour's ASBO policy to The Tories Hostile Environment Policy.

This just may come down to this that Patel as a minister is out of her depth. Just because you are a very able politician with a capacity to come up with 'good' policy does not mean you will be any good at managing a Government Department.

There is a theory that Johnson knows this, and that is why he has left Kit Malthouse at the Home Office as a 'safe pair of hands', when given his close relationship to Johnson he may have expected a cabinet position.

[Protheroe]

What absolute load of bollocks

Insightful as ever.

[Derek Hardballs]

The civil service are fast becoming another target for the Government to blame for the ills of the world, and an easy one to has they cannot go public with their point of view. 

The civil service is the greatest impediment to change in this country. Particularly in the current circumstances.

It would be the same if Labour were in office.

Really can't agree with this. Particularly with regard to The Home Office who do not seem to have a history of standing in the way of  Government policy - from Labour's ASBO policy to The Tories Hostile Environment Policy.

This just may come down to this that Patel as a minister is out of her depth. Just because you are a very able politician with a capacity to come up with 'good' policy does not mean you will be any good at managing a Government Department.

There is a theory that Johnson knows this, and that is why he has left Kit Malthouse at the Home Office as a 'safe pair of hands', when given his close relationship to Johnson he may have expected a cabinet position.

The reason Protheroe thinks she’s a great politician is simply down to them sharing the same ideology. It has absolutely nothing to do with with her achievements or ability to do the job. The demonising of Civil Service is yet another attempt to make scapegoats out of everyone but themselves when they fail to deliver and the wheels fall off their arguments.

[hudds]

From the left, I have some agreement with proth: the inertia and resistance to change is always a problem.

I have direct experience of a government minister agreeing a policy change on downstream oils supply that would give better front end fuel resilience only to be stymied by senior Treasury civil servants who simply feared change; they could give no legal or rational reasons to resist. I had to beat them up in meetings and go to law (and won at FTT). This is just one example of how they behave.

[Shabby Russian]

From the left, I have some agreement with proth: the inertia and resistance to change is always a problem.

I have direct experience of a government minister agreeing a policy change on downstream oils supply that would give better front end fuel resilience only to be stymied by senior Treasury civil servants who simply feared change; they could give no legal or rational reasons to resist.   I had to beat them up in meetings and go to law (and won at FTT).  This is just one example of how they behave.

I understand that and yes high ranking civil servants have a reputation for being against change and quite conservative (in the non political way).

However that is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes that conservatism can be useful in highlighting potential problems in new policies and it would be wrong if they failed to do this or felt inhibited from doing this by an overbearing Government minister.

Sometimes there is a good reason why something has always been done a certain way.

Ultimate decision making has to be in the hands of the Government minister but they need to be able to seek avice from all quarters and take that advice where appropriate.

[hudds]

From the left, I have some agreement with proth: the inertia and resistance to change is always a problem.

I have direct experience of a government minister agreeing a policy change on downstream oils supply that would give better front end fuel resilience only to be stymied by senior Treasury civil servants who simply feared change; they could give no legal or rational reasons to resist.   I had to beat them up in meetings and go to law (and won at FTT).  This is just one example of how they behave.

I understand that and yes high ranking civil servants have a reputation for being against change and quite conservative (in the non political way).

However that is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes that conservatism can be useful in highlighting potential problems in new policies and it would be wrong if they failed to do this or felt inhibited from doing this by an overbearing Government minister.

Sometimes there is a good reason why something has always been done a certain way.

Ultimate decision making has to be in the hands of the Government minister but they need to be able to seek avice from all quarters and take that advice where appropriate.

There is nothing wrong with civil servants giving balanced dispassionate advice.  The problem is that there often - I stress this, often - an entrenchment of views that lead to ministers not being given such advice or to resist change.  The Civil Service frequently thinks it IS the government/state.  I'm not sure what the answer is.

The funniest thing I came across where the civil service got undermined was from within.  When I was in HMCE policy, the Treasury (and alcohol branch in HMCE) would not accept the case from the smaller brewers (SIBA) for progressive beer duty (and HMCE was strongly opposed to it).  I had some sympathy with the case but it was not my side of things at that time.  I left HMCE in late 1997; I was astounded a few years later to hear about the introduction by Gordon Brown of progressive beer duty to benefit small brewers.  I asked a late former colleague and friend in Alcohol Policy how on earth Gordon Brown had been persuaded to enact this provision.  My friend told me “it was that bastard Damian McBride who shafted us”.  Damian McBride was a former HMCE fast streamer who ended up at the Treasury and became Gordon Brown’s confidante and attack dog.  Later, McBride went too far in his “black arts” and was sacked.  It was the enmity between my friend and McBride that led to McBride working relentlessly with SIBA to defeat HMCE Policy to get Brown to agree to small brewers’ reduced duty rates.  As McBride says in his book “Power Trip”:
 
“I was particularly despised by the Manchester-based team Customs team which administered alcohol duties, and – almost to spite them one year – I started asking questions about… small brewers relief.  It had always been resisted by HMCE and the Treasury because it was literally such small beer: why introduce complexity into the system just to hold back inevitable market forces? ….This became, without doubt, my finest hour as a civil servant.  Working with SIBA, I personally drove through the measure.  Customs fought me at every stage, but come Budget Day 2002, Gordon Brown was able to announce cheerily that the new relief would come in by the summer.”

It's a funny old world.

[baggy1]

It's all good and well saying that Civil Servants are the problem, and there are a couple of good anecdotes there Hudds - cheers, but what is the alternative. Or is there no real desire or need for an alternative, just someone to blame?

[Protheroe]

what is the alternative?

Political appointments as in the US. Accountability, you see.