Covid Vaccination ID

[backsidebaggie]

Do you genuinely think that people refusing the Vax think it will turn them into a telephone mast or wind farm?

And what is a conspiracy theory anyway? Are you telling people who have experienced negative effects from these jabs that it is all a conspiracy and they shouldn't worry because Bill Gates can't track them?

Why can all the people who are happy for this to go ahead make anyone not having the jab a crazed anti-vaxxer - either black or white and no middle ground?

And yet these passports  will save the planet because all vaxxed people never get Covid or pass it on do they?
Or how long their immunity and presumably therefore ability to transmit will last?
Or people who caught it and recovered - do they not have immunity or is it only the magic vaccine that gives that?

Lots of grey areas there too.

All great points.

The vast majority of those who don’t want this vaccine are pro vax in general. They have concerns on the cost benefit of this one. But the media are telling people they’re anti vax loons (whatever their reasons) and people fall for it and join in with the divisiveness.

Recovery is the best method of not passing it on. If you had covid 3 months ago you are safer to be around than a vaccinated person. Yet this is not questioned by journalists or touched upon by Sage? That’s insane, but people just accept it! It’s literally unbelievable.

A conspiracy theory is basically becoming anything that does not agree with Sage. And vax passports to get in places was literally a conspiracy theory last year. Now the government are using this to blackmail people and some are cheering it on! Crikey they’d go far in North Korea. All for the greater good! We’ll look after you, we’re the caring government. Give your medical autonomy to us, don’t worry, it’s fine. (And we’ll label anyone who disagrees a loony anti vaxxer, the stupid public will fall for this to fall into line!). Don’t question anything! If you do, you’re a conspiracy theorist and we’ll turn people on you. What a fucking time to live. Jesus.

[baggy1]

Are people genuinely defending the state in its attempts at blackmail?

They are! And incredibly those who slate the government most (and I agree they deserve slating), are happy to hand over their medical autonomy to that same government and they think this will stop at covid jabs/nightclubs!

Mandate this to update your digital certification to live life with normal freedoms? And people are in favour of this? Wow!! FFS there is a bigger picture here. This was literally a conspiracy theory when covid first began! Amazing what fear does. Amazing.

OK lets break this down a bit, when you talk about medical autonomy and refer to 'think this will stop with ....', what do you think this will extend to? I would say that the general belief for the population is that the more people get jabbed the better, that isn't guided by fear, as you state, but common sense. The numbers of people in hospital is increasing and will soon lead to cancellation of other procedures that will impact on many more than covid sufferers if it continues in the upwards direction at the current pace. 

Covid is a very specific situation that requires very specific steps to control it, if we just let it run its course it will cause initial damage to the vulnerable and then have the opportunity to mutate and cause damage to other groups. We can say this with some confidence because that is what has happened already and is happening now.

What exactly is the bigger picture - do you expect the government to mandate that you have the MMR or TB jabs (do they still have TB jabs), or do you expect restrictions for other medical reasons? 

The public can see the damage to society because of covid which means it makes sense that if you can have the jab then you should, that understanding is not because I am afraid of covid, I'm in pretty good shape for an over 50 year old but I can see the need to protect others. We have nearly 4k in hospital which has doubled from 2k in 2 weeks, any lockdown will continue to see a rise for two more weeks which means that we are pretty much guaranteed at the same rate to hit 8k in a couple more weeks time. Because we are not going into a lockdown we will go over 10k in just over 2 or 3 weeks, this is the territory that operations get cancelled.

[backsidebaggie]

Are people genuinely defending the state in its attempts at blackmail?

They are! And incredibly those who slate the government most (and I agree they deserve slating), are happy to hand over their medical autonomy to that same government and they think this will stop at covid jabs/nightclubs!

Mandate this to update your digital certification to live life with normal freedoms? And people are in favour of this? Wow!! FFS there is a bigger picture here. This was literally a conspiracy theory when covid first began! Amazing what fear does. Amazing.

OK lets break this down a bit, when you talk about medical autonomy and refer to 'think this will stop with ....', what do you think this will extend to? I would say that the general belief for the population is that the more people get jabbed the better, that isn't guided by fear, as you state, but common sense. The numbers of people in hospital is increasing and will soon lead to cancellation of other procedures that will impact on many more than covid sufferers if it continues in the upwards direction at the current pace. 

Covid is a very specific situation that requires very specific steps to control it, if we just let it run its course it will cause initial damage to the vulnerable and then have the opportunity to mutate and cause damage to other groups. We can say this with some confidence because that is what has happened already and is happening now.

What exactly is the bigger picture - do you expect the government to mandate that you have the MMR or TB jabs (do they still have TB jabs), or do you expect restrictions for other medical reasons? 

The public can see the damage to society because of covid which means it makes sense that if you can have the jab then you should, that understanding is not because I am afraid of covid, I'm in pretty good shape for an over 50 year old but I can see the need to protect others. We have nearly 4k in hospital which has doubled from 2k in 2 weeks, any lockdown will continue to see a rise for two more weeks which means that we are pretty much guaranteed at the same rate to hit 8k in a couple more weeks time. Because we are not going into a lockdown we will go over 10k in just over 2 or 3 weeks, this is the territory that operations get cancelled.

I think the average member of the public had had an enormous amount of fear drilled into them. The most for decades. Nothing on my lifetime has ever had this volume of news. Some people are very frightened despite their very low risk.

Yes the more that have the vaccine the better. But this has kept changing. First the over 50s and vulnerable. Then adults. Next children. The vaccine was supposed to get us back to normal. People on here told me months ago my predictions of winter lockdowns were doom mongering. Now despite massive uptake, restrictions are coming back soon (probably). The government told us in January vaccinate for freedom. Uptake is high but it’s still not enough. Yet keep trusting the government…

With the uptake as high as it is, if restrictions are coming back, then the government and Sage were totally wrong. They have said many times do this and we’ll beat the virus. First lockdown. Then lose November to save Xmas. Then lose Xmas to save Easter. And so on. Vaccination is the way out of this they said. Yet despite the huge uptake, it’s still not enough. We have to go blackmailing now.

Myself and baggie Nick said months ago this would happen and we were told no, the success of the vaccine action programme means the nhs will be able to cope. Well what happened to that?

I expect the government to try to mandate this jab, and an annual covid/flu booster. That’s my guess. And I’m absolutely confident that they’ll not have any investments in large pharmaceutical companies. Honest guv. And I’m sure the digital passes to get in places will honestly be for peoples safety. For the greater good, to look after them. After they’ve scared the shit out of them. Nothing to do with control, honest.

I like history and used to wonder how authoritarian governments, both far right and far left, got people onside. I can see it now, through fear and division. Piece of piss. The non vaxed are a threat to you! The Jews are a threat to you, said Adolf. An extreme example I know, but there’s some truth in it IMO. This is getting way out of hand. Fuck this government.

[baggy1]

You appear to be reading fact as fear - this really has increased our death numbers by over 20% pa last year, there really are 4m excess deaths in India where they are struggling to get vaccines rolled out, people see that and realise that this isn't normal and going about as normal isn't an option.

You also seem to think that a statement made at a point in time can't be changed when more information becomes available. There was a theory based on herd immunity figures that if we get 80% of the population to have had covid or be jabbed for it then we would be alright, this hasn't occurred and they have changed the view based on learning. That should be perfectly acceptable based on the current facts (hospitalisations increasing by over 40% per week) and therefore we now understand that more people need to be jabbed. The alternative is that the NHS can't deliver services.

Nobody anywhere (unless you count the mop haired liar) has said we will beat the virus, this will always be here and we need t learn to live with it. Living with it doesn't;t mean allowing people to die btw, we have to keep working through the options until we have it under control and we are still learning (and chasing views based on that learning btw). However if we had closed the borders when it was obvious we needed to then the vaccine programme would have been more effective.

Again you weren't any great sage talking of lockdowns months ago, it was obvious that if it gets out of control then we need to impose restrictions.

And again there is only you talking of fear, I'm not afraid and I'm not divided from anyone but I am using common sense and watching stats. It was very obvious that removing restrictions too early would be a mistake, it was very obvious that not closing the borders would be a mistake, it was obvious last year that we needed to lock down earlier and not doing so was a mistake - all of these things were mistakes made by an incompetent government that have got us to this point.

[Protheroe]

No! There are many including children under 12 who are specifically but not exclusively vulnerable to Covid. The chance that they would die from a cold or flu for example are significantly smaller than if they caught Covid. Your tough-titty argument can easily be reversed for those perfectly fit and healthy people who can but refuse to have the vaccine, or the passport. You are simply putting the rights of the fittest ahead of the weakest in society. If you're comfortable with this and think rights always trump responsibilities then fair enough but I'm never going to agree or respect that decision. If I'm mistaken then I will apologise in advance.

The argument about 'Fear' is real for many families who could lose a child to Covid and to not even try and see it from their perspective is quire a slap in the face. Passports wouldn't even be on the agenda if people simply had the vaccine in sufficient numbers. We want our rights but we abdicate all responsibility to the rest of society!

At least you admit your "Zero Covid" stance Dekka.

It is however the most singularly illiberal, selfish, authoritarian and wealth destroying take it's possible to have.

[Ossian]

I think the average member of the public had had an enormous amount of fear drilled into them. The most for decades. Nothing on my lifetime has ever had this volume of news. Some people are very frightened despite their very low risk.


Yes the more that have the vaccine the better. But this has kept changing. First the over 50s and vulnerable. Then adults. Next children. The vaccine was supposed to get us back to normal. People on here told me months ago my predictions of winter lockdowns were doom mongering. Now despite massive uptake, restrictions are coming back soon (probably). The government told us in January vaccinate for freedom. Uptake is high but it’s still not enough. Yet keep trusting the government…

With the uptake as high as it is, if restrictions are coming back, then the government and Sage were totally wrong. They have said many times do this and we’ll beat the virus. First lockdown. Then lose November to save Xmas. Then lose Xmas to save Easter. And so on. Vaccination is the way out of this they said. Yet despite the huge uptake, it’s still not enough. We have to go blackmailing now.

Myself and baggie Nick said months ago this would happen and we were told no, the success of the vaccine action programme means the nhs will be able to cope. Well what happened to that?

I expect the government to try to mandate this jab, and an annual covid/flu booster. That’s my guess. And I’m absolutely confident that they’ll not have any investments in large pharmaceutical companies. Honest guv. And I’m sure the digital passes to get in places will honestly be for peoples safety. For the greater good, to look after them. After they’ve scared the shit out of them. Nothing to do with control, honest.

I like history and used to wonder how authoritarian governments, both far right and far left, got people onside. I can see it now, through fear and division. Piece of piss. The non vaxed are a threat to you! The Jews are a threat to you, said Adolf. An extreme example I know, but there’s some truth in it IMO. This is getting way out of hand. Fuck this government.

I don't: caution - yes; apprehension - in some cases, possibly and understandably; an "enormous amount of fear drilled in"? really? You must move in different circles to those I encounter.

But reading down your post it looks like you have: mandatory vaccinations? the Nazis? I really should have stopped at the "me and Baggie Nick" bit, but I decided to work my way through the entire post. A mistake I won't be repeating.

[baggy1]

No! There are many including children under 12 who are specifically but not exclusively vulnerable to Covid. The chance that they would die from a cold or flu for example are significantly smaller than if they caught Covid. Your tough-titty argument can easily be reversed for those perfectly fit and healthy people who can but refuse to have the vaccine, or the passport. You are simply putting the rights of the fittest ahead of the weakest in society. If you're comfortable with this and think rights always trump responsibilities then fair enough but I'm never going to agree or respect that decision. If I'm mistaken then I will apologise in advance.

The argument about 'Fear' is real for many families who could lose a child to Covid and to not even try and see it from their perspective is quire a slap in the face. Passports wouldn't even be on the agenda if people simply had the vaccine in sufficient numbers. We want our rights but we abdicate all responsibility to the rest of society!

At least you admit your "Zero Covid" stance Dekka.

It is however the most singularly illiberal, selfish, authoritarian and wealth destroying take it's possible to have.

So what would you propose Proth? Hospitalisations are rising, and if they continue on this path, procedures will be stopped for non-covid treatment.

You mentioned last week that 40% of cases have been obtained whilst in hospital, do you have that research to back it up because this sound very much like some misinformation from last year but I'd like to see it to understand the statement.

[backsidebaggie]

If you think fear hasn’t effected the populations thinking as a whole, well fair enough. I think it’s consumed many peoples lives.

I’d also point out with this latest news that proof of negative test, nor previous infection, is not acceptable. If that’s not raising alarm bells, I don’t know what is. A vaccinated person can still carry the virus, therefore a negative test should suffice. There’s no reason for that to not be enough. In terms of someone previously infected, that is literally the best option for safety. Why should they have to prove vaccination? They are more safe than anyone to be around. But no, it’s got to be the vaccine. That stinks. And what stinks more, is that I bet the government won’t explain the science behind that. Because there is none! It’s literally anti science to exclude someone previously infected in favour of someone who is jabbed, despite not knowing how long the jab works for, and the fact we know the jab is not 100% effective.

When I said beat the virus, I meant live with it like flu. Something Sage have said a number of times. This is not living with it like flu.

Of course it wasn’t rocket science to predict lockdowns this autumn. It was obvious as fuck. I couldn’t believe so many people said otherwise on here.

But my pain point is it won’t stop here. This is digital ID through the back door. It is blackmailing young people to have a vaccine. It won’t stop at nightclubs (unless enough MPs stop this in its tracks). It won’t stop at this years vaccine. “Get your annual shots to live normally” is the way we’re heading. Sod that. Medical autonomy is so important and I think many people who are currently in favour of the passports will seriously backtrack in future when they realise this is the thin end of the wedge. I do not want to hand over my medical choices to the government. No way.

[baggy1]

If you think fear hasn’t effected the populations thinking as a whole, well fair enough. I think it’s consumed many peoples lives.

I’d also point out with this latest news that proof of negative test, nor previous infection, is not acceptable. If that’s not raising alarm bells, I don’t know what is. A vaccinated person can still carry the virus, therefore a negative test should suffice. There’s no reason for that to not be enough. In terms of someone previously infected, that is literally the best option for safety. Why should they have to prove vaccination? They are more safe than anyone to be around. But no, it’s got to be the vaccine. That stinks. And what stinks more, is that I bet the government won’t explain the science behind that. Because there is none! It’s literally anti science to exclude someone previously infected in favour of someone who is jabbed, despite not knowing how long the jab works for, and the fact we know the jab is not 100% effective.

When I said beat the virus, I meant live with it like flu. Something Sage have said a number of times. This is not living with it like flu.

Of course it wasn’t rocket science to predict lockdowns this autumn. It was obvious as fuck. I couldn’t believe so many people said otherwise on here.

But my pain point is it won’t stop here. This is digital ID through the back door. It is blackmailing young people to have a vaccine. It won’t stop at nightclubs (unless enough MPs stop this in its tracks). It won’t stop at this years vaccine. “Get your annual shots to live normally” is the way we’re heading. Sod that. Medical autonomy is so important and I think many people who are currently in favour of the passports will seriously backtrack in future when they realise this is the thin end of the wedge. I do not want to hand over my medical choices to the government. No way.

Ok so what is your solution because currently we have rising hospital numbers - how are you going to stop that before it impacts on other services?

[baggiebuckster]

It wouldn't surprise me based on this report

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguar...-hospitals