Anti semitism

[Ossian]

The OP and thread began about anti semitism and the left wing - this was emboldened in Labour by Corbyn and Momentum and has nothing to do with Brexit. They doubled down on it accusing any Jews of complaining about it as 'weaponising' the debate or being Zionist (by which they dont just mean ordinary Zionist believing in a homeland but extremist expansionist ones). In other words they were told to shut up and go away - thankfully they didn't and fought back despite the abuse. Sadly I don't see any clear path to fix this in Labour whilst the denials continue. 

I do; and it's really not complicated. You need a leader who makes it clear that it stops and stops now; and who then surrounds him/herself with like-minded people, both on the front bench and in other critical positions within the party. They don't have to necessarily be nice people or ones we'd all warm to; they just have to be effective - to the point of ruthlessness if needed.

It's had to be done before and there's still plenty of people out there who would remember how to go about it if guidance was required. I don't have much patience with hand-wringing when there is a potentially disastrous government to be held to account.

[Sotv]

Am i right in understanding the point as this - reporting of hate crime is up but that doesn't necessarily mean that hate crime is up (just the reporting of it), or is sotv saying that even though reporting of hate crime is up it simply isn't.

If it is the former then I think the point is that hate crime is out there and needs to be addressed, if sotv is saying that the argument that it was always high and it's not because of Brexit then that's just a point of view and not based on anything.

If he is saying that the reporting of hate crime is not up at all and it is just a conspiracy to make Brexit look bad then that is tin foil hat territory.

have i mentioned conspiracy? I don't think its that at all, its just many of you seem to not have the ability to understand that how these figures are arrived at and how these crimes can be reported changed drastically in 2014. What is now happening is anyone can rock up, claim to be a victim of a hate crime and with no evidence whatsoever, it gets recorded as such. Those figures are the ones Derek and his band of merry post brexit doom mongers are relying upon here. 
Here is the advice from the college of policing from 2014 
"For recording purposes, the perception of the victim, or any other person, is the defining factor in determining whether an incident is a hate incident, or in recognising the hostility element of a hate crime. The victim does not have to justify or provide evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not directly challenge this perception. Evidence of the hostility is not required for an incident or crime to be recorded as a hate crime or hate incident."
Given it usually takes a cpl of years for such things to filter through, i invite you to do the maths. 
What with so many people itching to be victims nowadays, the way many are so quick to report "offensive" tweets etc, those with a political agenda enocuraging others to report anything they can as hate (Sadiq Khan explicity warned about a surge in hate crime within weeks of the referendum, wonder why that was?)  its not difficult to see where the rise in reported crime has come from. 

I've never denied hate crime doesn't exist, what i dispute is that the real number of hate incidents has not seen such a huge rise as the Jean Claude Juncker fan club are claiming. Of course, if they have spent years calling everyone who voted to leave racist and the architects of the remain campaing have also done this, its no surprise you want to deny the figures you are relying on are unreliable an do not paint a true picture regarding the number of hate incidents that actually take place.
The truly deluded are those who have convinced themselves we now live in a era of unprecedented racism and bigotry because they don't like the fact they were on the losing side of the largest ever democratic vote

Its utterly amazing how youve found a qualitative brain as and when it suited you.

Dont think anyone thinks we are in an unprecedented era - stop with the hyperbole, it doesn't help the argument.

Yawn. Nothing to do with “when it suits”, I like to look at all possible factors and I certainly never rely purely on government stats for anything. Strangely you seem to have developed a quantative brain when it suits.
As for the hyperbole snipe, that really is rich coming from the side of the debate that have predicted the end of civilisation as we know it.
What is most telling though is that there is no response regarding why the figures should be believed now I’ve pointed out why they shouldn’t.

---

Why would so many people report a hate crime if none of them were experiencing hate?

1) because they are primed to detect discrimination and hate when it isn’t there by the left and the pervasive victim culture we seem to be creating 
2) Because hate crimes will always attract an extra element of sentencing meaning that if someone can add that to the charge, the person found guilty will get a bigger fine / longer jail sentence. If you were wanting revenge on someone who assaulted or argued with you, that would be a motivating factor for reporting ordinary altercations as hate crimes.

[HeathAyIt]

Am i right in understanding the point as this - reporting of hate crime is up but that doesn't necessarily mean that hate crime is up (just the reporting of it), or is sotv saying that even though reporting of hate crime is up it simply isn't.

If it is the former then I think the point is that hate crime is out there and needs to be addressed, if sotv is saying that the argument that it was always high and it's not because of Brexit then that's just a point of view and not based on anything.

If he is saying that the reporting of hate crime is not up at all and it is just a conspiracy to make Brexit look bad then that is tin foil hat territory.

have i mentioned conspiracy? I don't think its that at all, its just many of you seem to not have the ability to understand that how these figures are arrived at and how these crimes can be reported changed drastically in 2014. What is now happening is anyone can rock up, claim to be a victim of a hate crime and with no evidence whatsoever, it gets recorded as such. Those figures are the ones Derek and his band of merry post brexit doom mongers are relying upon here. 
Here is the advice from the college of policing from 2014 
"For recording purposes, the perception of the victim, or any other person, is the defining factor in determining whether an incident is a hate incident, or in recognising the hostility element of a hate crime. The victim does not have to justify or provide evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not directly challenge this perception. Evidence of the hostility is not required for an incident or crime to be recorded as a hate crime or hate incident."
Given it usually takes a cpl of years for such things to filter through, i invite you to do the maths. 
What with so many people itching to be victims nowadays, the way many are so quick to report "offensive" tweets etc, those with a political agenda enocuraging others to report anything they can as hate (Sadiq Khan explicity warned about a surge in hate crime within weeks of the referendum, wonder why that was?)  its not difficult to see where the rise in reported crime has come from. 

I've never denied hate crime doesn't exist, what i dispute is that the real number of hate incidents has not seen such a huge rise as the Jean Claude Juncker fan club are claiming. Of course, if they have spent years calling everyone who voted to leave racist and the architects of the remain campaing have also done this, its no surprise you want to deny the figures you are relying on are unreliable an do not paint a true picture regarding the number of hate incidents that actually take place.
The truly deluded are those who have convinced themselves we now live in a era of unprecedented racism and bigotry because they don't like the fact they were on the losing side of the largest ever democratic vote

Its utterly amazing how youve found a qualitative brain as and when it suited you.

Dont think anyone thinks we are in an unprecedented era - stop with the hyperbole, it doesn't help the argument.

Yawn. Nothing to do with “when it suits”, I like to look at all possible factors and I certainly never rely purely on government stats for anything. Strangely you seem to have developed a quantative brain when it suits.
As for the hyperbole snipe, that really is rich coming from the side of the debate that have predicted the end of civilisation as we know it.
What is most telling though is that there is no response regarding why the figures should be believed now I’ve pointed out why they shouldn’t.

---

Why would so many people report a hate crime if none of them were experiencing hate?

1) because they are primed to detect discrimination and hate when it isn’t there by the left and the pervasive victim culture we seem to be creating 
2) Because hate crimes will always attract an extra element of sentencing meaning that if someone can add that to the charge, the person found guilty will get a bigger fine / longer jail sentence. If you were wanting revenge on someone who assaulted or argued with you, that would be a motivating factor for reporting ordinary altercations as hate crimes.

Jesus. 60,000 people who had a detailed enough understanding of nuanced changes in policy and law to use it to exact revenge.

And there goes the unicorn with them.

[Sotv]

Am i right in understanding the point as this - reporting of hate crime is up but that doesn't necessarily mean that hate crime is up (just the reporting of it), or is sotv saying that even though reporting of hate crime is up it simply isn't.

If it is the former then I think the point is that hate crime is out there and needs to be addressed, if sotv is saying that the argument that it was always high and it's not because of Brexit then that's just a point of view and not based on anything.

If he is saying that the reporting of hate crime is not up at all and it is just a conspiracy to make Brexit look bad then that is tin foil hat territory.

have i mentioned conspiracy? I don't think its that at all, its just many of you seem to not have the ability to understand that how these figures are arrived at and how these crimes can be reported changed drastically in 2014. What is now happening is anyone can rock up, claim to be a victim of a hate crime and with no evidence whatsoever, it gets recorded as such. Those figures are the ones Derek and his band of merry post brexit doom mongers are relying upon here. 
Here is the advice from the college of policing from 2014 
"For recording purposes, the perception of the victim, or any other person, is the defining factor in determining whether an incident is a hate incident, or in recognising the hostility element of a hate crime. The victim does not have to justify or provide evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not directly challenge this perception. Evidence of the hostility is not required for an incident or crime to be recorded as a hate crime or hate incident."
Given it usually takes a cpl of years for such things to filter through, i invite you to do the maths. 
What with so many people itching to be victims nowadays, the way many are so quick to report "offensive" tweets etc, those with a political agenda enocuraging others to report anything they can as hate (Sadiq Khan explicity warned about a surge in hate crime within weeks of the referendum, wonder why that was?)  its not difficult to see where the rise in reported crime has come from. 

I've never denied hate crime doesn't exist, what i dispute is that the real number of hate incidents has not seen such a huge rise as the Jean Claude Juncker fan club are claiming. Of course, if they have spent years calling everyone who voted to leave racist and the architects of the remain campaing have also done this, its no surprise you want to deny the figures you are relying on are unreliable an do not paint a true picture regarding the number of hate incidents that actually take place.
The truly deluded are those who have convinced themselves we now live in a era of unprecedented racism and bigotry because they don't like the fact they were on the losing side of the largest ever democratic vote

Its utterly amazing how youve found a qualitative brain as and when it suited you.

Dont think anyone thinks we are in an unprecedented era - stop with the hyperbole, it doesn't help the argument.

Yawn. Nothing to do with “when it suits”, I like to look at all possible factors and I certainly never rely purely on government stats for anything. Strangely you seem to have developed a quantative brain when it suits.
As for the hyperbole snipe, that really is rich coming from the side of the debate that have predicted the end of civilisation as we know it.
What is most telling though is that there is no response regarding why the figures should be believed now I’ve pointed out why they shouldn’t.

---

Why would so many people report a hate crime if none of them were experiencing hate?

1) because they are primed to detect discrimination and hate when it isn’t there by the left and the pervasive victim culture we seem to be creating 
2) Because hate crimes will always attract an extra element of sentencing meaning that if someone can add that to the charge, the person found guilty will get a bigger fine / longer jail sentence. If you were wanting revenge on someone who assaulted or argued with you, that would be a motivating factor for reporting ordinary altercations as hate crimes.

Jesus. 60,000 people who had a detailed enough understanding of nuanced changes in policy and law to use it to exact revenge.

And there goes the unicorn with them.

It’s hardly nuanced, loads of people know that hate crimes attract a bigger sentence. As for the reporting in the 1st place, that’s more to do with people wanting to be victims and people being primed to look out for discrimination wherever it may or may not exist.
I’ve also never claimed there are 60,000 extra people turning up at police stations. Whilst in the past coppers may have required some evidence in the past to log something as a hate crime and told people to be on their way or just logged a normal assault, now they are forced to log it as a hate crime. 
The unicorn is actually being ridden by all these extra racists we have suddenly acquired since 2016.

[Derek Hardballs]

have i mentioned conspiracy? I don't think its that at all, its just many of you seem to not have the ability to understand that how these figures are arrived at and how these crimes can be reported changed drastically in 2014. What is now happening is anyone can rock up, claim to be a victim of a hate crime and with no evidence whatsoever, it gets recorded as such. Those figures are the ones Derek and his band of merry post brexit doom mongers are relying upon here. 
Here is the advice from the college of policing from 2014 
"For recording purposes, the perception of the victim, or any other person, is the defining factor in determining whether an incident is a hate incident, or in recognising the hostility element of a hate crime. The victim does not have to justify or provide evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not directly challenge this perception. Evidence of the hostility is not required for an incident or crime to be recorded as a hate crime or hate incident."
Given it usually takes a cpl of years for such things to filter through, i invite you to do the maths. 
What with so many people itching to be victims nowadays, the way many are so quick to report "offensive" tweets etc, those with a political agenda enocuraging others to report anything they can as hate (Sadiq Khan explicity warned about a surge in hate crime within weeks of the referendum, wonder why that was?)  its not difficult to see where the rise in reported crime has come from. 

I've never denied hate crime doesn't exist, what i dispute is that the real number of hate incidents has not seen such a huge rise as the Jean Claude Juncker fan club are claiming. Of course, if they have spent years calling everyone who voted to leave racist and the architects of the remain campaing have also done this, its no surprise you want to deny the figures you are relying on are unreliable an do not paint a true picture regarding the number of hate incidents that actually take place.
The truly deluded are those who have convinced themselves we now live in a era of unprecedented racism and bigotry because they don't like the fact they were on the losing side of the largest ever democratic vote

Its utterly amazing how youve found a qualitative brain as and when it suited you.

Dont think anyone thinks we are in an unprecedented era - stop with the hyperbole, it doesn't help the argument.

Yawn. Nothing to do with “when it suits”, I like to look at all possible factors and I certainly never rely purely on government stats for anything. Strangely you seem to have developed a quantative brain when it suits.
As for the hyperbole snipe, that really is rich coming from the side of the debate that have predicted the end of civilisation as we know it.
What is most telling though is that there is no response regarding why the figures should be believed now I’ve pointed out why they shouldn’t.

---

Why would so many people report a hate crime if none of them were experiencing hate?

1) because they are primed to detect discrimination and hate when it isn’t there by the left and the pervasive victim culture we seem to be creating 
2) Because hate crimes will always attract an extra element of sentencing meaning that if someone can add that to the charge, the person found guilty will get a bigger fine / longer jail sentence. If you were wanting revenge on someone who assaulted or argued with you, that would be a motivating factor for reporting ordinary altercations as hate crimes.

Jesus. 60,000 people who had a detailed enough understanding of nuanced changes in policy and law to use it to exact revenge.

And there goes the unicorn with them.

It’s hardly nuanced, loads of people know that hate crimes attract a bigger sentence. As for the reporting in the 1st place, that’s more to do with people wanting to be victims and people being primed to look out for discrimination wherever it may or may not exist.
I’ve also never claimed there are 60,000 extra people turning up at police stations. Whilst in the past coppers may have required some evidence in the past to log something as a hate crime and told people to be on their way or just logged a normal assault, now they are forced to log it as a hate crime. 
The unicorn is actually being ridden by all these extra racists we have suddenly acquired since 2016.

Really? People want to be victims! How many? A handful, some, all? You’re only lying to yourself or making excuses for unacceptable behaviour.

[HeathAyIt]

No one in their right mind thinks police stats are wholly credible, hence the correct downgrading of their status over the past few years.

However, your assertion that the majority or a wholly significant part of this rise can be attributed to the changes you refer to is equally lacking.

Not least because most of those factors would produce a uniform change, not a sustained and consistent growth.

[Sotv]

Its utterly amazing how youve found a qualitative brain as and when it suited you.

Dont think anyone thinks we are in an unprecedented era - stop with the hyperbole, it doesn't help the argument.

Yawn. Nothing to do with “when it suits”, I like to look at all possible factors and I certainly never rely purely on government stats for anything. Strangely you seem to have developed a quantative brain when it suits.
As for the hyperbole snipe, that really is rich coming from the side of the debate that have predicted the end of civilisation as we know it.
What is most telling though is that there is no response regarding why the figures should be believed now I’ve pointed out why they shouldn’t.

---

Why would so many people report a hate crime if none of them were experiencing hate?

1) because they are primed to detect discrimination and hate when it isn’t there by the left and the pervasive victim culture we seem to be creating 
2) Because hate crimes will always attract an extra element of sentencing meaning that if someone can add that to the charge, the person found guilty will get a bigger fine / longer jail sentence. If you were wanting revenge on someone who assaulted or argued with you, that would be a motivating factor for reporting ordinary altercations as hate crimes.

Jesus. 60,000 people who had a detailed enough understanding of nuanced changes in policy and law to use it to exact revenge.

And there goes the unicorn with them.

It’s hardly nuanced, loads of people know that hate crimes attract a bigger sentence. As for the reporting in the 1st place, that’s more to do with people wanting to be victims and people being primed to look out for discrimination wherever it may or may not exist.
I’ve also never claimed there are 60,000 extra people turning up at police stations. Whilst in the past coppers may have required some evidence in the past to log something as a hate crime and told people to be on their way or just logged a normal assault, now they are forced to log it as a hate crime. 
The unicorn is actually being ridden by all these extra racists we have suddenly acquired since 2016.

Really? People want to be victims! How many? A handful, some, all? You’re only lying to yourself or making excuses for unacceptable behaviour.

Yes, it’s a part of the new woke world we live in. It justifies their own hatred and prejudices in many cases as well. 
I am not making excuses, it just seems you are wilfully refusing to accept that changing how hate crimes are now recorded so that anything reported as one now shows on these stats massively skews the figures. It seems you are too keen to latch onto these stats in order to make a point about Brexit.

[Sotv]

HeathAyItNo one in their right mind thinks police stats are wholly credible, hence the correct downgrading of their status over the past few years.

However, your assertion that the majority or a wholly significant part of this rise can be attributed to the changes you refer to is equally lacking.

Not least because most of those factors would produce a uniform change, not a sustained and consistent growth.
*************************************************************************************************
No one in their right mind thinks police stats are wholly credible but you’re quite happy to use them to make an argument that backs your own political stance? 
Ok, another way to look at this is to look at the figures for unrecorded hate crimes, then if your assertion was true the total number of recorded and unrecorded hate crimes should increase. You can do this by looking at the crime survey of England and Wales. The estimated totals for 2016-2018 actually show a 40% reduction on the estimates for 2007-2009. 
I’d also like to know why the number of convictions for hate crimes has not significantly increased if more are being committed? 
No doubt though my facts are totally wrong as they don’t fit the remain narrative 
https://policyexchange.org.uk/surprising...e-figures/

[HeathAyIt]

HeathAyItNo one in their right mind thinks police stats are wholly credible, hence the correct downgrading of their status over the past few years.

However, your assertion that the majority or a wholly significant part of this rise can be attributed to the changes you refer to is equally lacking.

Not least because most of those factors would produce a uniform change, not a sustained and consistent growth.
*************************************************************************************************
No one in their right mind thinks police stats are wholly credible but you’re quite happy to use them to make an argument that backs your own political stance? 
Ok, another way to look at this is to look at the figures for unrecorded hate crimes, then if your assertion was true the total number of recorded and unrecorded hate crimes should increase. You can do this by looking at the crime survey of England and Wales. The estimated totals for 2016-2018 actually show a 40% reduction on the estimates for 2007-2009. 
I’d also like to know why the number of convictions for hate crimes has not significantly increased if more are being committed? 
No doubt though my facts are totally wrong as they don’t fit the remain narrative 
https://policyexchange.org.uk/surprising...e-figures/

If you want to understand why conviction rates are falling, i think you might need to do a bit of soul searching, same as with the genuine rise in segregation and racism.

[Sotv]

HeathAyItNo one in their right mind thinks police stats are wholly credible, hence the correct downgrading of their status over the past few years.

However, your assertion that the majority or a wholly significant part of this rise can be attributed to the changes you refer to is equally lacking.

Not least because most of those factors would produce a uniform change, not a sustained and consistent growth.
*************************************************************************************************
No one in their right mind thinks police stats are wholly credible but you’re quite happy to use them to make an argument that backs your own political stance? 
Ok, another way to look at this is to look at the figures for unrecorded hate crimes, then if your assertion was true the total number of recorded and unrecorded hate crimes should increase. You can do this by looking at the crime survey of England and Wales. The estimated totals for 2016-2018 actually show a 40% reduction on the estimates for 2007-2009. 
I’d also like to know why the number of convictions for hate crimes has not significantly increased if more are being committed? 
No doubt though my facts are totally wrong as they don’t fit the remain narrative 
https://policyexchange.org.uk/surprising...e-figures/

If you want to understand why conviction rates are falling, i think you might need to do a bit of soul searching, same as with the genuine rise in segregation and racism.

Of course I do, I mean I don’t agree with you so I must. You really are epitomising why the left are so far from power, well done.