INSULATE BRITAIN MORRONS

[baggpuss]

Just seen a video on you tube from today of these idiots blocking a road and refusing to move in order to let and Ambulance through on blue light Emergency, WHAT A COMPLETE BUNCH OF BRAINLESS CUNTS. There's footage of locals and drivers dragging these idiots out of the road and pleading with them to move but the twats just go back again, i really am at a loss to understand their mindset.

 Maybe one of our more tech savy ponners can post a link.

This one?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-58796091

[Borin' Baggie]

So we pay experts and it doesn't work and that's our fault? 

"didn't adjust behaviour to account for the new system"

I guess this means, get used to being cold.

Your argument suggests that either you were at fault, or the laws of thermodynamics are wrong. Which do you think is more likely there?

Behaviour changes is a huge issue, you don't use a heat pump like a gas boiler where you switch it on and off. You set a temperature and leave them on.

How can we be at fault detailing requirements that the system the experts speced and installed didn't meet?  As for setting it and leaving it, that is exactly what we did because the space had to be at 21C all year round.

Because it's either you're at fault with how you're operating and need to adjust behaviour or the laws of physics are wrong. I'm going to assume it was installed correctly otherwise you'd have had that checked, and quite frankly if your building has proved that refrigerant cycles are wrong then you might be in line for a Nobel Prize.

The obvious answer is the system was over sold as most of this type of this is.  I guess you have a vested interest in this and that is why the system can't be shit the customer must be.

Obviously I have a vested interest, that's why I literally put above that it's not worth installing retrofitting ground source heat pumps into existing builds...

I don't work with HVAC systems. I'm trying to point out to you that the efficiency of ground source heat pumps is better because of the laws of thermodynamics, the operational benefits of them is objective. You saying they're shit vs boilers is arguing that physics is wrong. I'll ask you again, what do you think is more likely? You being at fault or the laws of physics being wrong?

[baggiebloke]

Fucking hell.

---

Where's William Foster when you need him?

[SausEggBaton]

Fucking hell.

That's what I thought. At least hell is underground and is meant to be quite warm. I also reckon hell doesn't need to worry about thermodynamics.

[Morley]

Your argument suggests that either you were at fault, or the laws of thermodynamics are wrong. Which do you think is more likely there?

Behaviour changes is a huge issue, you don't use a heat pump like a gas boiler where you switch it on and off. You set a temperature and leave them on.

How can we be at fault detailing requirements that the system the experts speced and installed didn't meet?  As for setting it and leaving it, that is exactly what we did because the space had to be at 21C all year round.

Because it's either you're at fault with how you're operating and need to adjust behaviour or the laws of physics are wrong. I'm going to assume it was installed correctly otherwise you'd have had that checked, and quite frankly if your building has proved that refrigerant cycles are wrong then you might be in line for a Nobel Prize.

The obvious answer is the system was over sold as most of this type of this is.  I guess you have a vested interest in this and that is why the system can't be shit the customer must be.

Obviously I have a vested interest, that's why I literally put above that it's not worth installing retrofitting ground source heat pumps into existing builds...

I don't work with HVAC systems. I'm trying to point out to you that the efficiency of ground source heat pumps is better because of the laws of thermodynamics, the operational benefits of them is objective. You saying they're shit vs boilers is arguing that physics is wrong. I'll ask you again, what do you think is more likely? You being at fault or the laws of physics being wrong?

You really don't get it do you?  We paid supposed experts like you to design and install a system to our requirements, they did and it didn't do as required.  What fuck has that got to do with us being at fault.

[Borin' Baggie]

How can we be at fault detailing requirements that the system the experts speced and installed didn't meet?  As for setting it and leaving it, that is exactly what we did because the space had to be at 21C all year round.

Because it's either you're at fault with how you're operating and need to adjust behaviour or the laws of physics are wrong. I'm going to assume it was installed correctly otherwise you'd have had that checked, and quite frankly if your building has proved that refrigerant cycles are wrong then you might be in line for a Nobel Prize.

The obvious answer is the system was over sold as most of this type of this is.  I guess you have a vested interest in this and that is why the system can't be shit the customer must be.

Obviously I have a vested interest, that's why I literally put above that it's not worth installing retrofitting ground source heat pumps into existing builds...

I don't work with HVAC systems. I'm trying to point out to you that the efficiency of ground source heat pumps is better because of the laws of thermodynamics, the operational benefits of them is objective. You saying they're shit vs boilers is arguing that physics is wrong. I'll ask you again, what do you think is more likely? You being at fault or the laws of physics being wrong?

You really don't get it do you?  We paid supposed experts like you to design and install a system to our requirements, they did and it didn't do as required.  What fuck has that got to do with us being at fault.

I do get it, you're saying that ground source heat pumps are shit despite it being contradictory to the laws of thermodynamics. The only person not getting anything is you, because you're fixated on the problem being the system is at fault and not the externalities of operation, both in the environment and human behaviour. Heat pumps are not boilers, you don't operate them as boilers. I have enough experience working on research projects for power and every time we do a technical demonstration the root cause more often than not is human behaviour.

[Sotv]

Anyone know the cost of running ground source heat pumps compared to gas boilers for heating a home? Is it similar?

Heat pumps only heat water to a certain temp 50 degrees I believe? And need an electric/gas boiler to heat the rest.

They work well in summer but worse in winter.

Thats what I am told.

A modern ground source heat pump can heat water to close to 70C. You do not need a boiler in conjunction.

The issue is that they work best with houses that are set up to use them, underfloor heating and steady state circulation for example. Plus they're expensive to install due to the boring for the well. 

They are always more efficient than an electric boiler. They're more efficient than a gas boiler in terms of mechanics but not always in terms of cost if you've got cheap gas.

The problem is that it's not worth retrofitting them for the most part, that's why I specified new builds. There is zero excuse for a new housing development to not install them.

We looked into air source heat pumps which is what I think coxy is referring to as well as ground source when we needed a new boiler. Both were significantly more expensive than a traditional boiler, ground source would have been around 20 -30k I think as it required digging up the garden! 
The air source was also more plus we were told about the summer / winter performance issue. Even the sales guys from 2 companies advised it wasn’t an economical option for us (3 bed, early 70’s build detached). 
Even with the incentive schemes both would have been more and we wouldn’t have seen big enough enough savings to make it worthwhile. 
As Borin says, it seems to be the retrofitting that is the problem. If doing new build then you can run the ground source pump infrastructure in easily when starting off.

[HLS]

This 'ere International break then... 

[DemonicBaggie]

According to that sort of fatalistic reasoning, I'm not sure any other planet deserves our presence. Diverting all the world's resources from saving the planet we currently inhabit into the vague hope of transporting us elsewhere in the universe also displays a very strange kind of logic - on the same sort of level as people gluing themselves to roads, really.

Sorry for the exaggerated reasoning, however at some point in the future our star the Sun will become a Red Giant and will engulf all of the inner planets - no amount of superglue to tarmac will stop that happening.

In the short term we can delay the inevitable, and cut back on the problems we are causing, but they should be targeting the major industrial nations who are the main cause of the current problem, new houses in this country are pretty well insulated these days.

I'd pretty much agree with all that. I guess on the one hand we've got five billion years before meltdown to sort out our extraterrestrial escape plans, so that can be put on hold for now. 
As for the protesters I understand why people get pissed off with their daily routines being disrupted and I don't think it's the best way to gain public support. But I firmly believe the inaction of governments and multinationals has driven many well meaning people to desperate ends they really shouldn't have to engage in.

Yep that desperate that they are prepared to willingly block an emergency Ambulance and potentially cause the death of some poor soul and put their families through hell ,just to get their message across ,,,fucking cunts the lot of them.

Morrons, too. Apparently.

[Cheshire East Baggie]

Well I'm sure ground source schemes aren't shit just because Morley had a bad experience, equally I'm sure Morley wasn't at fault for operating it wrongly. There are all sorts of contractors out there offering heating schemes and the laws of physics can be pretty much fucked up by a bad design or installation.

As the more recent posts have pointed out, these schemes are more expensive to install and retro-fitting can rarely be justified on cost grounds - that is running costs to the user. That's why incentives have to be put in place, funding has to be provided to encourage property owners to improve energy efficiency. I guess even if you went out and replaced all of your halogen and low energy fluorescent light bulbs with LEDs, it might take years to recover the cost.

The Insulate Britain idiots are quite correct in thinking that governments have to act, to find the funding and put the incentives in place. Not just our government, all governments across the world. How do you make that happen? Not by blocking roads and alienating the public.