Covid Vaccination ID

[backsidebaggie]

No, lockdown, but don't whinge about it if we end up there because some people decided for no reason other than they didn't fancy it to not get vaccinated.

And that's my point. There will be another lockdown IMO. And a proportion of those vaccinated will blame those who didn't want the vaccine. It will become poisonous and divisive. I fully expect this to happen in the Autumn.

You mention they have "no reason other than not fancying it". As if "not fancying it" will be their reason! That's saft! There will be many reasons why some don't want it. They may not be reasons you agree with, or I agree with, but there'll be many different reasons.

I spend a load of time in the Asian communities as my mrs is Asian, and a number of my mates are. I know a reasonable proportion of people who will not have the vaccine (some white as well, not only asian). All of them have reasons. None of them are "not fancying it". However, what have I seen the last few months? Basically, a media saying that people who don't want it are "anti vaxers who believe misinformation". Literally none of the people I know are anti vaxers in relation to other vaccines. They've all had a lot of previous vaccines, but guess what? They're being lumped in as "anti vax". In addition, I've seen many references to asians not having the vax due to it containing pork or its not halal. Now there could be some who think that, but I know a lot of muslims and they laugh at this generalisation. In addition, I'm not aware there's any more uptake in the sikh community (in fact I know more sikhs than muslims), and they wouldn't be bothered about pork! Furthermore, the black community has an even lower uptake so that doesn't add up either!

I've been told by a few people their reasons, I could list a few (many are to do with not trusting governments culturally due to where their families are from - and this links in to goalpost moving, sorry to bring that up again), but none are anti vax per se, and none are to do with pork/halal.

But my point is this: We're already seeing a divisive picture put into people's heads by the media (and government) that people who don't want it are "anti vax" who "get their info from facebook". That seed has been planted. This creates division to start with. Then throw in the inevitable blaming of these people if we go into another lockdown, and I can see a really really poisonous autumn. One where there will be a significant proportion of the population who would absolutely agree with vaccine passports (or as that Guardian article says digital ID by stealth), and would have been almost riled into agreeing with restrictions on those who don't want the vaccine.

I don't like the direction this is going. I seriously hope this is simply pressure to get uptake increased, or I believe we are going down a very dangerous road. Both a divisive one, and a more state intrusive one. Maybe I am paranoid, but I can see a pattern - and ever moving goalposts (sorry again) do not help with my trust in the government. I cannot accept that within 6 weeks the science has said we don't need domestic vax passports, then landlords can ask, then they're being looked at). Divide and rule is an age old tactic.

[Fido]

I know this will provoke Godwin’s Law and I don’t necessarily agree with the sentiment entirely but which high-ranking Nazi ( I’m sure it was at the Nuremberg trials) said “All you need to control people is to make them feel they are under threat”. Was it someone like Hess or Goering?

[backsidebaggie]

I know this will provoke Godwin’s Law and I don’t necessarily agree with the sentiment entirely but which high-ranking Nazi ( I’m sure it was at the Nuremberg trials) said “All you need to control people is to make them feel they are under threat”. Was it someone like Hess or Goering?

Indeed. May have been Himmler. The easiest way of increasing intrusiveness and control is through fear.

And I'm not saying Boris Johnson is the next Hitler!

But the fact is there is an incredible opportunity right now for the government with a population who are confused and scared and mixed up. No one has ever had anything like this in their life. Its unprecedented. Do you trust this government to be genuine? I know I don't.

[baggy1]

The problem isn't fear, fuck me we're not sitting here terrified of the big bad virus. The real problem, not the imaginary one under the bed, is if we go into another lockdown because cases start rising again then we as a country are fucked. Jobs, business, lives will be shattered with a fair number never recovering. We need to be doing everything we can now to get as many vaccinated as possible because if we go into lockdown there will be rioting. 

In your canvassing of the asian population what were the reasons for not wanting the vaccine?

[backsidebaggie]

The problem isn't fear, fuck me we're not sitting here terrified of the big bad virus. The real problem, not the imaginary one under the bed, is if we go into another lockdown because cases start rising again then we as a country are fucked. Jobs, business, lives will be shattered with a fair number never recovering. We need to be doing everything we can now to get as many vaccinated as possible because if we go into lockdown there will be rioting. 

In your canvassing of the asian population what were the reasons for not wanting the vaccine?

I think there is a lot of people with an irrational fear of the virus. Not me personally, I'd stand in a gig crowd right now. But I think you underestimate how many do have a serious fear of it - much bigger than the actual data suggests on an individual level. I do think we have an unusually scared and mixed up population that have had serious mental upheaval, more so than any generation since WW2 perhaps? The sheer volume of covid related news is like nothing in decades (as a proportion of the overall news). It has to have a mental and emotional effect.

I agree about the rioting. I think that's coming in the autumn.

I hardly canvassed the asian population, in terms of friends and the mrs family I am in regular contact with probably 15 ish people. Then they've mentioned their own families too in a couple of cases, and presuming they discuss this with their families, we might be talking about reasons covering a couple of dozen people at least. I appreciate they may not be typical at all of others so its just a very small snapshot.

A selection are (and combinations of):

They'd rather wait for longer term knowledge of any side effects. Other drugs pass phase 3 trials and later get withdrawn on safety grounds and they're aware of that.
They don't trust any government telling them what to do. Full stop. I got the feeling that may be a cultural thing (family background in other countries? I don't know), not certain.
They think its ridiculous to have the vaccine at their age (some in their 20s) given the risk to them (I know there's the transmission thing and overall responsibility but I'm just repeating their reasons)
They've mentioned vaccine trials in developing countries that they're aware of (family links to these countries? I don't know, I didn't press her on it (one specific workmate said that to me), nor have I tried to look up what she's talking about).
Intending to have a family and they don't feel possible issues in this respect can be totally ruled out after such a short time.

I'll add any more if they come back to me.

I appreciate its a tiny sample and I'm not trying to be a smart arse. I'm just passing on my experience as I spend a lot of time with Asian friends and mrs's family. In more than one case they laughed/mocked the halal/pork reason and said its nonsense. Again, I don't know. Maybe that is the case for some but they thought it would be virtually no one. I'm honestly just passing on my experience.

[Ossian]

Anybody who believes that the right are the natural defenders of liberty could do worse than read (for starters) any or all of the following...

Fascism - Madeleine Allbright

How democracies die - Steven Levitsky

Democracy in chains - Nancy Maclean

The authoritarian right is no less sinister than its far left counterpart; it is however frequently far more adept at securing and wielding power. Johnson may not be a natural authoritarian (although the man is such a chameleon how could you ever be sure?), but he is weak, and manipulable by elements within the Tory ranks who are anything but liberal. The fact that Sunak has temporarily embraced his inner Social Democrat might be welcome; it shouldn't lure anybody into lowering their guard.

[Protheroe]

manipulable by elements within the Tory ranks who are anything but liberal

Like who?

[Tom Joad]

I think we are spoiled in as much as we've not had an authoritarian government. There is no guarantee this will always be the case. The harvesting of personal details is now way beyond anything we have ever experienced  and this is worldwide. Because I choose not to join in on Facebook, twitter, whatever,  doesn't mean I have got my head bandaged in foil, its simply that I prefer to remain private.
I've had my 1st jab, do I trust it implicitly? How can I? I made a judgement call. If some are less trusting than others, then that's just the way it is.
I notice today it's been announced that those "on a tag" can be tested every 15 minutes for alcohol levels. This may be a good thing but such technology may not always be as benevolent.  Just my onions.

[Sliced]

I think we are spoiled in as much as we've not had an authoritarian government. There is no guarantee this will always be the case. The harvesting of personal details is now way beyond anything we have ever experienced  and this is worldwide. Because I choose not to join in on Facebook, twitter, whatever,  doesn't mean I have got my head bandaged in foil, its simply that I prefer to remain private.
I've had my 1st jab, do I trust it implicitly? How can I? I made a judgement call. If some are less trusting than others, then that's just the way it is.
I notice today it's been announced that those "on a tag" can be tested every 15 minutes for alcohol levels. This may be a good thing but such technology may not always be as benevolent.  Just my onions.

If you've got nothing to worry about then why wouldn't you be on Facebook?

That's the logic isn't it? Absolute insanity

[Brentbaggie]

I have been told many times that I should be on Facebook, and to a lesser extent other social media. I am happy to say I am not and have absolutely no interest in doing so. I've even been told that my work and career would have benefited. My response has been, "Yes and I my brain wouldn't."