The defender of concentration camps
#1
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politic...tion-camps

Not only is this an utterly deplorable position, everything he said is wrong as shown by the Hansard notes of the parliamentary debate on the matter in 1902 and is an absolute disgrace to the memory of Emily Hobhouse and everyone else involved in bringing up the atrocities towards Afrikaaners in the Boer War. And Jacob Rees-Mogg is an Oxbridge history graduate for Christ's sakes.

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansa...tion-camps
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#2
What gets lost in worshipping national personalities like Churchill is the simple Yooman fact that most of us are the two legged versions of the curate's egg: good and bad and in parts.

Insisting that Churchill's record cannot be questioned is simply wrong. If he'd died in 1938, and given the massive advantages he was born with, he would have gone down as a politician who promised much but failed to deliver. Instead, the man and the circumstance came together after to foster an effective wartime leader.

Perspective is what's need. Acknowledge strengths, but recognise weaknesses. Unless you're living in a "one story" state.
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#3
(02-16-2019, 10:27 AM)Pneumann Wrote: What gets lost in worshipping national personalities like Churchill is the simple Yooman fact that most of us are the two legged versions of the curate's egg: good and bad and in parts.

Insisting that Churchill's record cannot be questioned is simply wrong. If he'd died in 1938, and given the massive advantages he was born with, he would have gone down as a politician who promised much but failed to deliver. Instead, the man and the circumstance came together after to foster an effective wartime leader.

Perspective is what's need. Acknowledge strengths, but recognise weaknesses. Unless you're living in a "one story" state.

Churchill was a complicated figure but had absolutely nothing to do with the Boer War concentration camps, that was Kitchener.
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#4
Interesting that JRM compares death rates to Glasgow - Churchill sent troops and six tanks there during the 1919 strike as well. He was indeed complicated and very anti workers and women's rights by today's standards and very pro Empire and racist by today's standards too. But so were most millions of others in the UK and Europe and beyond  (e.g. Japan) - very much a different world in terms of views on other cultures and solutions to political and social problems. His complications therefore are not that unusual in context.

So not really a fair stuck to beat Churchill with - the setting up of the camps in South Africa was not supposed to be for ethnic cleansing as we associate the term snd use with Concentration Camps because of Germany. It still worked out very badly however.
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#5
Wasn't Churchill responsible for drawing up many of the borders for Middle East countries too?
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#6
(02-16-2019, 10:34 AM)Borin\ Baggie Wrote:
(02-16-2019, 10:27 AM)Pneumann Wrote: What gets lost in worshipping national personalities like Churchill is the simple Yooman fact that most of us are the two legged versions of the curate's egg: good and bad and in parts.

Insisting that Churchill's record cannot be questioned is simply wrong. If he'd died in 1938, and given the massive advantages he was born with, he would have gone down as a politician who promised much but failed to deliver. Instead, the man and the circumstance came together after to foster an effective wartime leader.

Perspective is what's need. Acknowledge strengths, but recognise weaknesses. Unless you're living in a "one story" state.

Churchill was a complicated figure but had absolutely nothing to do with the Boer War concentration camps, that was Kitchener.

The weren't concentration camps FFS. They were internment camps. Used many times by others (e.g. the Spanish in Cuba). Nothing like the concentration camps of the Nazis.
And Churchill was imprisoned in the Boer War and in no position influence policy.
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#7
(02-18-2019, 06:56 PM)Cunninghamismagic Wrote:
(02-16-2019, 10:34 AM)Borin\ Baggie Wrote:
(02-16-2019, 10:27 AM)Pneumann Wrote: What gets lost in worshipping national personalities like Churchill is the simple Yooman fact that most of us are the two legged versions of the curate's egg: good and bad and in parts.

Insisting that Churchill's record cannot be questioned is simply wrong. If he'd died in 1938, and given the massive advantages he was born with, he would have gone down as a politician who promised much but failed to deliver. Instead, the man and the circumstance came together after to foster an effective wartime leader.

Perspective is what's need. Acknowledge strengths, but recognise weaknesses. Unless you're living in a "one story" state.

Churchill was a complicated figure but had absolutely nothing to do with the Boer War concentration camps, that was Kitchener.

The weren't concentration camps FFS. They were internment camps. Used many times by others (e.g. the Spanish in Cuba). Nothing like the concentration camps of the Nazis.
And Churchill was imprisoned in the Boer War and in no position influence policy.

You do realise that the term "concentration camps" came into into prominence to refer directly to British internment camps right set up in the Boer war? And that term comes from the reconcentrados which in turn refers to the latter phases Cuban war of independence right? They were concentration camps.

And just because they weren't as bad as the Nazi's versions doesn't mean they were sunshine and roses, civilian Boers and black farmers were systematically starved in there and the death rate reached 1 in every 4 people, most of them children.

And I said that Churchill had nothing to do with them, they were Herbert Kitchener's policy.
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#8
what's truly deplorable is using the holocaust so you can create a misleading thread title to attack someone over Brexit.
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#9
(02-18-2019, 09:04 PM)Sotv Wrote: what's truly deplorable is using the holocaust so you can create a misleading thread title to attack someone over Brexit.

1. The video in the link clearly shows Jacob Rees-Mogg defending concentration camps, titled by the BBC as concentration camps. It isn't misleading in thy slightest.

2. I haven't mentioned the Holocaust at all.

3. I've not mentioned Brexit at all.
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#10
(02-18-2019, 09:12 PM)Borin\ Baggie Wrote:
(02-18-2019, 09:04 PM)Sotv Wrote: what's truly deplorable is using the holocaust so you can create a misleading thread title to attack someone over Brexit.

1. The video in the link clearly shows Jacob Rees-Mogg defending concentration camps, titled by the BBC as concentration camps. It isn't misleading in thy slightest.

2. I haven't mentioned the Holocaust at all.

3. I've not mentioned Brexit at all.

You didn’t need to mention anything explicitly and you know it.
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