28 point “peace plan”

[tHEgLASSdOORS]

Looks to me like there will be a serious attempt to railroad Ukraine into appeasing Russia & pretty much capitulating. 
Question is - if they do - does this really make Europe safer or more vulnerable

---

https://www.removepaywall.com/search?url...e_vignette

[Squid]

Looks to me like there will be a serious attempt to railroad Ukraine into appeasing Russia & pretty much capitulating. 
Question is - if they do - does this really make Europe safer or more vulnerable

---

https://www.removepaywall.com/search?url...e_vignette

Considering a Russian spy ship is currently skulking around UK waters and they've recently blown up a railway line in Poland, the signs seem to indicate the latter.

[CarlosCorbewrong]

And we all know which side a Reform government would take in these matters

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c891403eddet

[Tom Joad 25]

And we all know which side a Reform government would take in these matters

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c891403eddet

One of them has just been locked up for cosying up to Russia. I hope this is all over the 6 o clock news. 
One thing about this Trump deadline though, the orange moron will probably change his mind a number of times before then. Europe needs to step up, first to Trump and next to Russia.

[DemonicBaggie]

And we all know which side a Reform government would take in these matters

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c891403eddet

One of them has just been locked up for cosying up to Russia. I hope this is all over the 6 o clock news. 
One thing about this Trump deadline though, the orange moron will probably change his mind a number of times before then. Europe needs to step up, first to Trump and next to Russia.

This is true. And as much as Zelenskyy is currently mired in a corruption scandal at home, it pales into insignificance compared to the cracks appearing in the maga movement. Trump is probably in the most vulnerable position he’s been in since he stitched up nominations for the Supreme Court.

[HugeHons]

What a week for the odious Trump. Brown nosing MBS and shrugging off the murder of a Washington Post journalist, then him and his cronies throwing Ukraine to the Wolves. Putin will ‘accept’ the deal so blame can be put on to Zelenskyy, forcing him into defeat. The murky world of Geopolitics is even murkier with Trump.

[HawkingsHalfpint]

I think Trump had divvied up Ukraine long before he returned to office; and he’s now paying back the guy who helped get him there not once but twice. I’ve never trusted Zelenskyy much (his rapid firing of almost the whole executive, followed by a complete u-turn over his own corruption agencies speaks volumes about his administration to me) but he is either complicit in all of this, or learning that you shouldn’t dance with the devil.

But, unfortunately, it’s a situation not all of his own making. Yes, the Donbas situation was hardly milk and honey for years before all of this, and always had the potential to kick off further. But Europe largely ignored it to keep Putin sweet, meanwhile winding him up by going back on the Madrid agreements.

Absolutely nobody comes out of this with any credit, the two largest superpowers will benefit, meanwhile everyone else bears the brunt - and, not least, the poor Ukrainian people and victims on both sides.

It is a truly shit world in which we live.

[Tom Joad 25]

I think Trump had divvied up Ukraine long before he returned to office; and he’s now paying back the guy who helped get him there not once but twice. I’ve never trusted Zelenskyy much (his rapid firing of almost the whole executive, followed by a complete u-turn over his own corruption agencies speaks volumes about his administration to me) but he is either complicit in all of this, or learning that you shouldn’t dance with the devil.

But, unfortunately, it’s a situation not all of his own making. Yes, the Donbas situation was hardly milk and honey for years before all of this, and always had the potential to kick off further. But Europe largely ignored it to keep Putin sweet, meanwhile winding him up by going back on the Madrid agreements.

Absolutely nobody comes out of this with any credit, the two largest superpowers will benefit, meanwhile everyone else bears the brunt - and, not least, the poor Ukrainian people and victims on both sides.

It is a truly shit world in which we live.

I'd say the Ukraine people come out of it with huge credit. Widely predicted to roll over in a week, 3 years on and they are far from defeated while their spirit remains defiant. As for corruption,  there is a long history of it and important as it might be it has to come a pale second to being under bombardment on many fronts. Russia are the aggressor here and no mistake.

[Squid]

I think Trump had divvied up Ukraine long before he returned to office; and he’s now paying back the guy who helped get him there not once but twice. I’ve never trusted Zelenskyy much (his rapid firing of almost the whole executive, followed by a complete u-turn over his own corruption agencies speaks volumes about his administration to me) but he is either complicit in all of this, or learning that you shouldn’t dance with the devil.

But, unfortunately, it’s a situation not all of his own making. Yes, the Donbas situation was hardly milk and honey for years before all of this, and always had the potential to kick off further. But Europe largely ignored it to keep Putin sweet, meanwhile winding him up by going back on the Madrid agreements.

Absolutely nobody comes out of this with any credit, the two largest superpowers will benefit, meanwhile everyone else bears the brunt - and, not least, the poor Ukrainian people and victims on both sides.

It is a truly shit world in which we live.

I'd say the Ukraine people come out of it with huge credit. Widely predicted to roll over in a week, 3 years on and they are far from defeated while their spirit remains defiant. As for corruption,  there is a long history of it and important as it might be it has to come a pale second to being under bombardment on many fronts. Russia are the aggressor here and no mistake.

Agreed. Hawkins comments smack rather too much of the "both sides bad" argument which has been going on since even before 2014 and seems to blame the Ukrainians for "provoking" Russia into invading.

I think people find that idea more comforting than the reality of an aggressive Russian state seeking to expand both territory and influence.

[HawkingsHalfpint]

I don’t blame the Ukrainian people at all for this. I’m not sure where I’ve even implied that; moreover that they are in a lose-lose situation. Mainly because Trump has been far more opportunistic where Biden was helpful, for reasons we can only surmise.