Loan charge scandal

[Borin' Baggie]

Formally linked to 10 suicides, very similar to the rumblings on the administrative side covering up the consequences from the Post Office scandal. The government (as per Nigel Huddleston MP, Financial Secretary to the Treasury) reluctant to hold a second review, warnings from 5 years ago about it's impact.

Do the right thing Hunt and fix this in the bud before it explodes.

[Protheroe]

Hmm. I went to a presentation by Jimmy Carr's tax adviser about this not long after I set up on my own. If it looks like evasion, smells like evasion and tastes like evasion then it's evasion.

I wouldn't go anywhere near it. I feel terribly sorry for those that did and have been hit by big retrospective bills, and as I've stated on here several times legal avoidance is just a rational thing to do. Disguised remuneration was, and is beyond the pale though. Just asking for trouble IMO, and morally suspect.

[Borin' Baggie]

Hmm. I went to a presentation by Jimmy Carr's tax adviser about this not long after I set up on my own. If it looks like evasion, smells like evasion and tastes like evasion then it's evasion.

I wouldn't go anywhere near it. I feel terribly sorry for those that did and have been hit by big retrospective bills, and as I've stated on here several times legal avoidance is just a rational thing to do. Disguised remuneration was, and is beyond the pale though. Just asking for trouble IMO, and morally suspect.

The issue is that a lot of the people affected didn't know they were avoiding tax, they weren't given any independent advice and HMRC has gone after the low-hanging fruit of those people instead of the companies/directors of closed companies that took out the loans "on their behalf" to avoid their own tax liabilities. Not to mention the strong-arming of HMRC and the lack of payment plans being offered for repayment.

HMRC were being called out on this 4 years ago, the suicides were warned. I think it's fair game to call out that this is a scandal and HMRC have failed to go after the people who actually gained from the arrangement to avoid paying fair wages.

[Protheroe]

The issue is that a lot of the people affected didn't know they were avoiding tax

Evading, is the word you're looking for. Not avoiding. 

I've been indulging in the latter today, entirely legally - financing something from my DL to avoid BIK.

From the presentation I attended it was nothing to do with companies "gaining from the arrangement to avoid paying fair wages" and everything to do with pecuniary advantage for the individual.

Now I can sympathise on the subject of the HMRC strong arming people. They're fucking useless as an organisation and display all the empathy of Rose West - but frankly, suggesting that all those who evaded tax in this way are "victims" is stretching it.

[Borin' Baggie]

No, I mean avoiding. Egregious tax avoidance still isn't evasion even if there's a moral argument to regain unpaid tax contributions through the principle of natural justice.

And you are completely missing the point with regards to application, people were defrauded by businesses encouraging people to engage with that - hence the point about no independent tax advice. The companies that took out the loans on behalf of the people being chased are the primary perpetrators that HMRC should have been going after but opted not to. Dan Neidle has exposed one of those businesses (involving Doug Barrowman, linked to PPEmedpro) that should be on the cuff recently if you want to watch the latest Newsnight, it's pretty explicit with the nature of the fraud and false and deceptive marketing. If people don't know what they're engaging with because the facts have been hidden by the seller then they're victims of fraud, and HMRC is chasing them instead of the people doing the defrauding because they're low hanging fruit.

[Protheroe]

I accept that there has been abuse by *some* umbrella companies, but as I said many of these schemes were aimed a people like me who should've known better. There were 80 people at the seminar I attended and the operator was running three each week.

If there is forgiveness of this, it must be targeted otherwise those who have engaged in egregious evasion will benefit. When they shouldn't.

I know several people who were lulled into the "film making business" for similar selfish reasons, who're now regretting it too.

[CarlosCorbewrong]

I think if Proth is calling out people for morally questionable tax avasion then I think we can take that to the bank

[Borin' Baggie]

I accept that there has been abuse by *some* umbrella companies, but as I said many of these schemes were aimed a people like me who should've known better. There were 80 people at the seminar I attended and the operator was running three each week.

If there is forgiveness of this, it must be targeted otherwise those who have engaged in egregious evasion will benefit. When they shouldn't.

I know several people who were lulled into the "film making business" for similar selfish reasons, who're now regretting it too.

It appears that most of the cases the people taking out the loans were unaware they were loans which is the point, and there doesn't need to be any forgiveness - there's evidence that those contractors even received payslips saying NI and tax was deducted. There needs to be a proper inquiry into the actions of HMRC both in it's abuse of power over it's treatment of individuals and it's failures to go after the umbrella companies and their directors to chase the tax from.

HMRC going after low hanging fruit and employing bully tactics by going after the wrong people to reclaim tax under a well meaning but poorly written law is the issue, not the principle of that tax being repaid. Also Mel Stride who wrote the poorly written law lying about them going after the umbrella corps. and making up non-existent convictions to cover his arse.

[Malcolm Tucker]

I think if Proth is calling out people for morally questionable tax avasion then I think we can take that to the bank