Little Rishi

[Borin' Baggie]

I'm not sure what the point in posting that over the Times of Israel article from a few days ago was?

Hamas need to be removed from power in Gaza, obviously. What Lapid has said is that this needs to be through ensuring the Palestinian Authority displaces them there which is a rational strategy - Bibi and his allies in government aren't saying that (probably because Bibi's plan since he came to power was to undermine the PA).

That is the point, the Israeli government doesn't have an end game. Lapid does but he's not in government.

[HawkingsHalfpint]

Given Israel our full backing and hopes they "win".  On whose behalf? What a numpty. A good statesmen would condemn the terrorist attack and  the appalling cruelty but insist on the safety of ALL civilians.  I've just watched the news, fathers carrying the bodies of their dead children, hospitals overflowing and normal people squabbling over bread while lorries of essential drinking water supplies are held back at the border. If anyone thinks this will end terrorism they live in cloud cuckoo land. This over educated, under performing,spoon fed incompetent needs get a job he can handle or just live off his wife and be open about it. Johnson, Truss and now Sunak, who sent in the clowns?

Not in my name. Other European leaders, namely Spain and Ireland have called for international law to be respected, but Sunak is too idiotic to think beyond saying what's popular thos week.

I feel exactly the same. 

The media rhetoric in all of this is disgusting. The manner in which they are presenting this (and the kowtowing to Israel over many aspects of this conflict - not to mention the fiasco over Jon Donnison) is utterly appalling. Almost like 'you must choose a side'. From the Actors' Letter to the sympathy-eliciting, beautiful images of beautiful hostages and their beautiful families, it is the abject opposite of fair coverage. I am not seeing the same for innocent Palestinians in MSM. 

I read it best when I saw a comment akin to a conclusion has been drawn, and now it must be justified. 

Fuck off, Rishi. We don't want winners and losers. 99% of us want peace, and 99% of us recognise that true peace is never truly achieved; between the oppressed and its oppressor. We also are capable of making up our own minds without taking sides, don't have any agenda either way, and understand what you don't in that this is precisely why the barbaric acts that trigger scenarios such as this occur.

The whole situation was built on sand, and to justify that sand is an agenda in itself.

[Protheroe]

At the risk of repeating myself Hawks, we all want peace.

The problem is that Hamas' only political and military aim is the destruction of Israel and Israelis. Hamas chose to murder, rape and kidnap unarmed cilivilians in Israel. It regularly chooses to carry out summary executions of Gazans on the streets of Gaza amongst other atrocities against its own people. It places rocket launchers and munitions in highly populated areas. It also seems to have caused a fire at one of its own hospitals last week with one of the 450-odd rockets it fired that fell short of Israel.

You'll have to remind me who the oppressor is in Gaza? Is the right wing Israeli government that will in all likelihood collapse once this is over? Or is the Islamofascist Hamas whose leaders have brought hell upon southern Israel and Gaza, whilst placed out of harms way in Qatar?

Rishi Sunak may be many things, but hoping Israel "wins" against Hamas is a perfectly reasonable. I want a winner and I want a loser. I'm certainly not alone in that.

[Squid]

At the risk of repeating myself Hawks, we all want peace.

The problem is that Hamas' only political and military aim is the destruction of Israel and Israelis. Hamas chose to murder, rape and kidnap unarmed cilivilians in Israel. It regularly chooses to carry out summary executions of Gazans on the streets of Gaza amongst other atrocities against its own people. It places rocket launchers and munitions in highly populated areas. It also seems to have caused a fire at one of its own hospitals last week with one of the 450-odd rockets it fired that fell short of Israel.

You'll have to remind me who the oppressor is in Gaza? Is the right wing Israeli government that will in all likelihood collapse once this is over? Or is the Islamofascist Hamas whose leaders have brought hell upon southern Israel and Gaza, whilst placed out of harms way in Qatar? 

Rishi Sunak may be many things, but hoping Israel "wins" against Hamas is a perfectly reasonable. I want a winner and I want a loser. I'm certainly not alone in that.

Proth. You have been told multiple times now, there will be no military defeat of Hamas and this latest carnage is only likely to boost their numbers.

There's also the fact of the Israeli army being considerably less strong then everyone* believed. The US are privately extremely worried about the looming land invasion of Gaza. Tom Friedman of the NYT is a very well-connected journalist, so his words are worthy of note:


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/opini...-gaza.html

The entire region is a tinderbox at the moment. It needs calm heads, not more bloodshed.

*People who were paying attention back in the 2006 Israel - Lebanon war knew this already.

[Protheroe]

At the risk of repeating myself Hawks, we all want peace.

The problem is that Hamas' only political and military aim is the destruction of Israel and Israelis. Hamas chose to murder, rape and kidnap unarmed cilivilians in Israel. It regularly chooses to carry out summary executions of Gazans on the streets of Gaza amongst other atrocities against its own people. It places rocket launchers and munitions in highly populated areas. It also seems to have caused a fire at one of its own hospitals last week with one of the 450-odd rockets it fired that fell short of Israel.

You'll have to remind me who the oppressor is in Gaza? Is the right wing Israeli government that will in all likelihood collapse once this is over? Or is the Islamofascist Hamas whose leaders have brought hell upon southern Israel and Gaza, whilst placed out of harms way in Qatar? 

Rishi Sunak may be many things, but hoping Israel "wins" against Hamas is a perfectly reasonable. I want a winner and I want a loser. I'm certainly not alone in that.

Proth. You have been told multiple times now, there will be no military defeat of Hamas and this latest carnage is only likely to boost their numbers.

There's also the fact of the Israeli army being considerably less strong then everyone* believed. The US are privately extremely worried about the looming land invasion of Gaza. Tom Friedman of the NYT is a very well-connected journalist, so his words are worthy of note:


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/opini...-gaza.html

The entire region is a tinderbox at the moment. It needs calm heads, not more bloodshed.

*People who were paying attention back in the 2006 Israel - Lebanon war knew this already.

By those who ignore the military defeats of ISIS, Al Qaeda & to a lesser extent the PKK. 

And again, please help me out - where are the calm heads in Hamas? There are none. Hamas is an Iranian puppet intent on the destruction of Israel and the replacement of any degree of order in the Middle East by Iranian hegemony. You don't defeat Islamofascism by appeasement.

Can you imagine how this liberal handwringing looks to the Iranians, Russians or Chinese? You're playing into their hands.

[HawkingsHalfpint]

At the risk of repeating myself Hawks, we all want peace.

The problem is that Hamas' only political and military aim is the destruction of Israel and Israelis. Hamas chose to murder, rape and kidnap unarmed cilivilians in Israel. It regularly chooses to carry out summary executions of Gazans on the streets of Gaza amongst other atrocities against its own people. It places rocket launchers and munitions in highly populated areas. It also seems to have caused a fire at one of its own hospitals last week with one of the 450-odd rockets it fired that fell short of Israel.

You'll have to remind me who the oppressor is in Gaza? Is the right wing Israeli government that will in all likelihood collapse once this is over? Or is the Islamofascist Hamas whose leaders have brought hell upon southern Israel and Gaza, whilst placed out of harms way in Qatar? 

Rishi Sunak may be many things, but hoping Israel "wins" against Hamas is a perfectly reasonable. I want a winner and I want a loser. I'm certainly not alone in that.

This is the problem... no one is hoping Hamas wins either. Not here, at least. So many threads and posts on this, and it's the same counterpoint; over and over.

I think - for the clearly pro-Israel - there is an unbreakable and somewhat innate natural reaction to being unable to separate criticism of Israel, from support for Hamas. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Nobody is saying that Hamas - if acceded to in some way (never going to happen, because Bibi has to save face to save power, which I agree he will lose anyway for being quite so self-servantly asleep at the wheel) aren't a persistent threat. I'm sure they always will/would be. 

But you seem to believe that the removal of Hamas will cure the problem?

So at the risk of repeating myself, we didn't herd a load of N-Irish Catholics into a place they couldn't move from, and then carpet bomb the entire area; just because of the IRA. Despite their multiple attacks on our soil. We still created a massive problem, however. Just as Israel has here. A decades-old problem that suited one party better than the other. 

And a problem that will always exist - no matter how much it is whitewashed or justified with irrelevant history lessons - whilst a two-state regime exists whereby one state is clearly subjugated by the other. 

Fix that, and you fix the problem. Don't... and, well let's see what happens next shall we.

[Protheroe]

Israel is not carpet-bombing Gaza. If that's your view then this a subject which we won't be able to debate I'm afraid.

There is no two-state solution. Hamas, then the Israelis saw to that years ago.

It was great to see your brother on Friday btw. Looking well, despite his age...

[CaptainFantastico]

Until the fundamental attributes of being an apartheid state are addressed, none of the constant volatility will go away. It will just deepen, as it has.

[Pontificator]

Until the fundamental attributes of being an apartheid state are addressed, none of the constant volatility will go away. It will just deepen, as it has.

Israel has a population of around almost 10 million 2 million are Arabs who are represented at all levels, can you explain to me how Israel is an apartheid state?

[Squid]

At the risk of repeating myself Hawks, we all want peace.

The problem is that Hamas' only political and military aim is the destruction of Israel and Israelis. Hamas chose to murder, rape and kidnap unarmed cilivilians in Israel. It regularly chooses to carry out summary executions of Gazans on the streets of Gaza amongst other atrocities against its own people. It places rocket launchers and munitions in highly populated areas. It also seems to have caused a fire at one of its own hospitals last week with one of the 450-odd rockets it fired that fell short of Israel.

You'll have to remind me who the oppressor is in Gaza? Is the right wing Israeli government that will in all likelihood collapse once this is over? Or is the Islamofascist Hamas whose leaders have brought hell upon southern Israel and Gaza, whilst placed out of harms way in Qatar? 

Rishi Sunak may be many things, but hoping Israel "wins" against Hamas is a perfectly reasonable. I want a winner and I want a loser. I'm certainly not alone in that.

Proth. You have been told multiple times now, there will be no military defeat of Hamas and this latest carnage is only likely to boost their numbers.

There's also the fact of the Israeli army being considerably less strong then everyone* believed. The US are privately extremely worried about the looming land invasion of Gaza. Tom Friedman of the NYT is a very well-connected journalist, so his words are worthy of note:


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/opini...-gaza.html

The entire region is a tinderbox at the moment. It needs calm heads, not more bloodshed.

*People who were paying attention back in the 2006 Israel - Lebanon war knew this already.

By those who ignore the military defeats of ISIS, Al Qaeda & to a lesser extent the PKK. 

And again, please help me out - where are the calm heads in Hamas? There are none. Hamas is an Iranian puppet intent on the destruction of Israel and the replacement of any degree of order in the Middle East by Iranian hegemony. You don't defeat Islamofascism by appeasement.

Can you imagine how this liberal handwringing looks to the Iranians, Russians or Chinese? You're playing into their hands.

Hamas for all their jihadi posturing are a nationalist terrorist group fighting for a Palestinian state which they control. They can't be compared to IS/AQ which had multinational (and therefore less stable) membership and a floating set of aims. 

The PKK are far from defeated! They ended their ceasefire with Turkey in June and have the Kurdish autonomous region in Syria and Iraqi Kurdistan to play in, the latter of which in increasingly wealthy. 

Iran, China and Russia would absolute love the US and the West to be immersed in another protracted, unwinnable ME war. The US has already diverted weaponry that would be going to Ukraine to Israel instead. That's fantastic for Russia. 

Meanwhile, China used the US being over-invested in the Middle East to focus on building bridges and relationships with other counties. You cannot underestimate the damage the recent Western govt statements have done in the Global South. They have watched the West defend Israel being praised for doing exactly what Russia was criticised for. The clip of Ursula Von de Leyen saying that Russia cutting off water and electricity to Ukraine is a war crime and comparing it to her statement saying Israel can defend itself as it likes has gone around the world many, many times. The message to Africa, Asia and South America is very clear: the West thinks human rights/international law are for white people. 

As for Iran. This is their big chance. They are already firing rockets from Yemen and there is no way Israel would be able to fight on the ground in Gaza and Lebanon at the same time. If I were in the Iranian regime, I would be getting very excited at the thought of finally getting the upper hand in the Middle East and nobody being powerful enough to stop me, because there is absolutely no way the West is going to get sucked into a direct war with Iran while also supporting Ukraine.

PS: This looks like carpet bombing to most people with eyes: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-67072902