Little Rishi

[Squid]

It's a win if there is not another terrorist attack on that scale ever again. People are already forgetting that almost 2000 people were murdered, beheaded, raped and kidnapped. 2000 in a population of 9 million. This is the attempt to create the conditions to wipe Israel off the face of the map. The actions of Israel in Gaza must be laid at the door of HAMAS and folk would be wise to use thst fact to molify their anxiety.

Hamas cannot be defeated militarily.

1)Their leadership and funding exist outside of Gaza and the reach of Israel.

2)They have an endless supply of willing footsoldiers. If Bloody Sunday had people queuing up to join the PIRA, what do you think wiping out people's entire families will do? Anti-state action which begets state overreaction, will only lead to further anti-state action. Always has and always will.

3) Hamas cannot wipe Israel off the map. So what Israel are doing doesn't look like "protection", it looks to the vast majority of the outside world like revenge. And again, many other countries are noticing the double standards between the West condemning Putin for cutting off water and saying it's fine for Israel to do the same. The damage in the standing of the West has been colossal and China and Russia will benefit from that.

Finally, I do think Jews count. All Israelis have the right to live in peace, as does everyone else in that region. I do not see anything in the current actions of the Israeli government which will generate that peace.

I strongly recommend you listen to these words from a survivor of the Hamas attack: https://twitter.com/orlybarlev/status/17...2042093890

[Borin' Baggie]

One man's terrorist and all that.

It'll be a win when everyone realises.itll never end until people stop trading anger and revenge in the crazy belief that they will somehow win out. It won't.

Pacifist bullshit. You do not have control over peoples actions unless you are stronger than them and they know you are prepared to use your power. I cannot understand people who can't distinguish between those who resist violence and those who perpetrate it.  Israel are defending themselves and if there is collateral then so be it, the blame lies with HAMAS. Would you be in the appeasment camp if a NATO country were attacked? Would you defend your family against attack by thugs or would you bleat the above in the hope they would listen. FFS get a life.

Hamas' funding is external to Gaza. The political leadership does not live in Gaza. International calls to action from Israel's allies for sanctions against Qatar is non-existent.

Invading Gaza is not a rational action. Israel isn't going to bother trying to annex it because it can't resource wise. Egypt doesn't want it. So what you're left with is a group of people extremely pissed off at Israel being radicalised further while the funding and organisation of terrorists being unaffected due to not being in Gaza. So what's the point?

Israel's only out is to legitimise Arab-Israeli cooperation in Israel and to legitimise the pro two-state solution parties in Palestine like Fatah and try to move things back to what they were before Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, but they aren't are they? And do you honestly think the Palestinians in Gaza are going to look at Israel attacking them and are going to blame Hamas? Because precedent says no, they won't, they will blame Israel and further radicalise.

[CaptainFantastico]

Great post.

Can we not get back to the ranting though, regardless of whether it has no chance of working.

[CarlosCorbewrong]

Great post.

Can we not get back to the ranting though, regardless of whether it has no chance of working.

To me, it sounded like he just hates Jews.

[CaptainFantastico]

That's the obvious conclusion from the whole peace orientated thread when I take a step back

[Pontificator]

One man's terrorist and all that.

It'll be a win when everyone realises.itll never end until people stop trading anger and revenge in the crazy belief that they will somehow win out. It won't.

Pacifist bullshit. You do not have control over peoples actions unless you are stronger than them and they know you are prepared to use your power. I cannot understand people who can't distinguish between those who resist violence and those who perpetrate it.  Israel are defending themselves and if there is collateral then so be it, the blame lies with HAMAS. Would you be in the appeasment camp if a NATO country were attacked? Would you defend your family against attack by thugs or would you bleat the above in the hope they would listen. FFS get a life.

Hamas' funding is external to Gaza. The political leadership does not live in Gaza. International calls to action from Israel's allies for sanctions against Qatar is non-existent.

Invading Gaza is not a rational action. Israel isn't going to bother trying to annex it because it can't resource wise. Egypt doesn't want it. So what you're left with is a group of people extremely pissed off at Israel being radicalised further while the funding and organisation of terrorists being unaffected due to not being in Gaza. So what's the point?

Israel's only out is to legitimise Arab-Israeli cooperation in Israel and to legitimise the pro two-state solution parties in Palestine like Fatah and try to move things back to what they were before Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, but they aren't are they? And do you honestly think the Palestinians in Gaza are going to look at Israel attacking them and are going to blame Hamas? Because precedent says no, they won't, they will blame Israel and further radicalise.

It's their only action and the use of force is a necessary tool of diplomacy, but I doubt Abbas can assert himself, nor will it stop an occupation

[Tom Joad]

Nowhere in this thread is there any anti Jewish sentiment. Everyone condemns HAMAS.  And there is nothing wrong or pacifist about calling for a measured response. Terrorism exists purely to generate a reaction which reinforces it's own particular belief. Israel is doing just that with the bombing of civilians. If my family were victims of Hamas or the Israeli bombings I would swear revenge. Right, wrong, religion or anti Semitism has nothing to do with it.  That is why statesmen need to be true leaders and not spout populist rhetoric. In the mid 60's, IRA membership was under a dozen. Within 3 years it had more support than it could ever have desired. The reason? The over-reaction that was internment. There is nothing pacifist about wanting an end to terror.

[Borin' Baggie]

One man's terrorist and all that.

It'll be a win when everyone realises.itll never end until people stop trading anger and revenge in the crazy belief that they will somehow win out. It won't.

Pacifist bullshit. You do not have control over peoples actions unless you are stronger than them and they know you are prepared to use your power. I cannot understand people who can't distinguish between those who resist violence and those who perpetrate it.  Israel are defending themselves and if there is collateral then so be it, the blame lies with HAMAS. Would you be in the appeasment camp if a NATO country were attacked? Would you defend your family against attack by thugs or would you bleat the above in the hope they would listen. FFS get a life.

Hamas' funding is external to Gaza. The political leadership does not live in Gaza. International calls to action from Israel's allies for sanctions against Qatar is non-existent.

Invading Gaza is not a rational action. Israel isn't going to bother trying to annex it because it can't resource wise. Egypt doesn't want it. So what you're left with is a group of people extremely pissed off at Israel being radicalised further while the funding and organisation of terrorists being unaffected due to not being in Gaza. So what's the point?

Israel's only out is to legitimise Arab-Israeli cooperation in Israel and to legitimise the pro two-state solution parties in Palestine like Fatah and try to move things back to what they were before Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, but they aren't are they? And do you honestly think the Palestinians in Gaza are going to look at Israel attacking them and are going to blame Hamas? Because precedent says no, they won't, they will blame Israel and further radicalise.

It's their only action and the use of force is a necessary tool of diplomacy, but I doubt Abbas can assert himself, nor will it stop an occupation

And what's the end game? As has already been pointed out it isn't going to weaken the Hamas leadership as they're not in Gaza, and it's not going to cut off funding or arms as that's coming from Iran and Qatar so Hamas isn't going to submit. Palestinians are only going to get more pissed off at Israel. Israel also doesn't want to control the land, and the only other option for them is give it to Egypt who also doesn't want it. The talk coming from the Israeli government isn't just about recovering the hostages (assuming that Hamas hasn't already murdered them), is it? I think it's pretty telling that even the moderate factions in the Knesset are reticent to back Bibi.

It's not rational, there is no end game for Israel from invading Gaza. And we've already seen what happens in Iraq and Afghanistan when you go in without an end game.

If you want to see a rational response as to what to do with Gaza, you need only listen to Yair Lapid. But unfortunately he and his party aren't in charge.

[Squid]

One man's terrorist and all that.

It'll be a win when everyone realises.itll never end until people stop trading anger and revenge in the crazy belief that they will somehow win out. It won't.

Pacifist bullshit. You do not have control over peoples actions unless you are stronger than them and they know you are prepared to use your power. I cannot understand people who can't distinguish between those who resist violence and those who perpetrate it.  Israel are defending themselves and if there is collateral then so be it, the blame lies with HAMAS. Would you be in the appeasment camp if a NATO country were attacked? Would you defend your family against attack by thugs or would you bleat the above in the hope they would listen. FFS get a life.

Hamas' funding is external to Gaza. The political leadership does not live in Gaza. International calls to action from Israel's allies for sanctions against Qatar is non-existent.

Invading Gaza is not a rational action. Israel isn't going to bother trying to annex it because it can't resource wise. Egypt doesn't want it. So what you're left with is a group of people extremely pissed off at Israel being radicalised further while the funding and organisation of terrorists being unaffected due to not being in Gaza. So what's the point?

Israel's only out is to legitimise Arab-Israeli cooperation in Israel and to legitimise the pro two-state solution parties in Palestine like Fatah and try to move things back to what they were before Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, but they aren't are they? And do you honestly think the Palestinians in Gaza are going to look at Israel attacking them and are going to blame Hamas? Because precedent says no, they won't, they will blame Israel and further radicalise.

It's their only action and the use of force is a necessary tool of diplomacy, but I doubt Abbas can assert himself, nor will it stop an occupation

And what's the end game? As has already been pointed out it isn't going to weaken the Hamas leadership as they're not in Gaza, and it's not going to cut off funding or arms as that's coming from Iran and Qatar so Hamas isn't going to submit. Palestinians are only going to get more pissed off at Israel. Israel also doesn't want to control the land, and the only other option for them is give it to Egypt who also doesn't want it. The talk coming from the Israeli government isn't just about recovering the hostages (assuming that Hamas hasn't already murdered them), is it? I think it's pretty telling that even the moderate factions in the Knesset are reticent to back Bibi.

It's not rational, there is no end game for Israel from invading Gaza. And we've already seen what happens in Iraq and Afghanistan when you go in without an end game.

If you want to see a rational response as to what to do with Gaza, you need only listen to Yair Lapid. But unfortunately he and his party aren't in charge.

The lack of an endgame is starting to become glaringly obvious.
This is a very interesting thread: https://twitter.com/MikeRStephens/status...n9dvg&s=19

For those looking for forward thinking Israeli and Palestinian voices, I would also recommend following the work of +972

[Pontificator]

One man's terrorist and all that.

It'll be a win when everyone realises.itll never end until people stop trading anger and revenge in the crazy belief that they will somehow win out. It won't.

Pacifist bullshit. You do not have control over peoples actions unless you are stronger than them and they know you are prepared to use your power. I cannot understand people who can't distinguish between those who resist violence and those who perpetrate it.  Israel are defending themselves and if there is collateral then so be it, the blame lies with HAMAS. Would you be in the appeasment camp if a NATO country were attacked? Would you defend your family against attack by thugs or would you bleat the above in the hope they would listen. FFS get a life.

Hamas' funding is external to Gaza. The political leadership does not live in Gaza. International calls to action from Israel's allies for sanctions against Qatar is non-existent.

Invading Gaza is not a rational action. Israel isn't going to bother trying to annex it because it can't resource wise. Egypt doesn't want it. So what you're left with is a group of people extremely pissed off at Israel being radicalised further while the funding and organisation of terrorists being unaffected due to not being in Gaza. So what's the point?

Israel's only out is to legitimise Arab-Israeli cooperation in Israel and to legitimise the pro two-state solution parties in Palestine like Fatah and try to move things back to what they were before Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, but they aren't are they? And do you honestly think the Palestinians in Gaza are going to look at Israel attacking them and are going to blame Hamas? Because precedent says no, they won't, they will blame Israel and further radicalise.

It's their only action and the use of force is a necessary tool of diplomacy, but I doubt Abbas can assert himself, nor will it stop an occupation

And what's the end game? As has already been pointed out it isn't going to weaken the Hamas leadership as they're not in Gaza, and it's not going to cut off funding or arms as that's coming from Iran and Qatar so Hamas isn't going to submit. Palestinians are only going to get more pissed off at Israel. Israel also doesn't want to control the land, and the only other option for them is give it to Egypt who also doesn't want it. The talk coming from the Israeli government isn't just about recovering the hostages (assuming that Hamas hasn't already murdered them), is it? I think it's pretty telling that even the moderate factions in the Knesset are reticent to back Bibi.

It's not rational, there is no end game for Israel from invading Gaza. And we've already seen what happens in Iraq and Afghanistan when you go in without an end game.

If you want to see a rational response as to what to do with Gaza, you need only listen to Yair Lapid. But unfortunately he and his party aren't in charge.

https://x.com/skynews/status/17161282848...8ZifAydOyA