Things that should be simple but are a proper ballache

[MassDebater]

I'm genuinely curious - when you ask prospective employees to do an eight hour project - do you offer to compensate them for their time?

It's not an 8 hour project, it's a technical test that is up to them how long they spend on it. We do not use the code for anything other than an evaluation of them being able to code. Absolutely basic version you could boilerplate one in maybe 2 hours. As I say I spent 11 hours doing mine, because I wanted the job. Some places have much more time consuming and stringent talking interviews, nobody expects to get paid for that.

Do people taking any sort of exam get compensated? I suppose with us the compensation is a job that pays decent money?

I once dated a trainee chef, to get a job at one of the fancy hotels in Brum (the one on Five Ways island, i forget its name) they expected her to do a full week's shift to see how she performed, for zero money.

My Sons girlfriend, ( they are both at university ) wanted a part time job to get a bit of money put aside. She applied at a care home, had an interview, ( she visits my mother in law in a home and is great with her ), they wanted her to do a month with no pay as `A Training Period `.

And now that is one sector that is crying out for staff. They relied heavily on Eastern Europe labour before Brexit. You can only wonder how they were treated at that home. And as for the residents....

In all fairness to the above poster, I'm sure he wouldn't have done that. That's just shameful.

It's incredibly hard to get any care home staff nowadays, I work for one of the largest care companies int he country, and staffing is a right pain at the moment.

I realised after I hit send that my earlier reply may have sounded defensive, it wasn't intended. I've never experienced any company paying me to attend an interview or do any sort of proficiency test. So yours is very unusual I think.

I disagree about the best ones won't do the test, I did it And we're in the exact position where we can't just hope that they will work out in the real World without testing them in some practical way. In my 25 years (15 ish being involved in some of the interview phases), even guys with 20+ years experience on a CV have been unable to provide a simple test (practical or written / verbal), whereas some younglings have blown it out of the water and gone on to be excellent choices. Actually I'd say in my experience it's mostly the Uni trained ones who are the worst, and can't think properly. Development isn't about writing the code, anyone can do that bit, it's about how your mind works...and even graduates can't fake that.

[fuzzbox]

I disagree about the best ones won't do the test, I did it And we're in the exact position where we can't just hope that they will work out in the real World without testing them in some practical way. In my 25 years (15 ish being involved in some of the interview phases), even guys with 20+ years experience on a CV have been unable to provide  a simple test (practical or written / verbal), whereas some younglings have blown it out of the water and gone on to be excellent choices. Actually I'd say in my experience it's mostly the Uni trained ones who are the worst, and can't think properly. Development isn't about writing the code, anyone can do that bit, it's about how your mind works...and even graduates can't fake that.

I really hope I made it clear that it wasn't always the case that the best won't do it!!

However, I'd be willing to bet that your situation was unique. Or maybe you are?!

We're not as unusual as we were. The competition for staff is so high, that although we're still in the minority, nobody is surprised anymore when we offer it. We're having to look at other ways to attract the top talent - preferably without getting into a price war...

[Borin' Baggie]

I disagree about the best ones won't do the test, I did it And we're in the exact position where we can't just hope that they will work out in the real World without testing them in some practical way. In my 25 years (15 ish being involved in some of the interview phases), even guys with 20+ years experience on a CV have been unable to provide  a simple test (practical or written / verbal), whereas some younglings have blown it out of the water and gone on to be excellent choices. Actually I'd say in my experience it's mostly the Uni trained ones who are the worst, and can't think properly. Development isn't about writing the code, anyone can do that bit, it's about how your mind works...and even graduates can't fake that.

I really hope I made it clear that it wasn't always the case that the best won't do it!!

However, I'd be willing to bet that your situation was unique.

Seems pretty standard for software jobs, all my mates who applied to early career or entry level data science, data analyst or programming jobs all had a technical exam question they had to do to prepare for the interview.

[fuzzbox]

I disagree about the best ones won't do the test, I did it And we're in the exact position where we can't just hope that they will work out in the real World without testing them in some practical way. In my 25 years (15 ish being involved in some of the interview phases), even guys with 20+ years experience on a CV have been unable to provide  a simple test (practical or written / verbal), whereas some younglings have blown it out of the water and gone on to be excellent choices. Actually I'd say in my experience it's mostly the Uni trained ones who are the worst, and can't think properly. Development isn't about writing the code, anyone can do that bit, it's about how your mind works...and even graduates can't fake that.

I really hope I made it clear that it wasn't always the case that the best won't do it!!

However, I'd be willing to bet that your situation was unique.

Seems pretty standard for software jobs, all my mates who applied to early career or entry level data science, data analyst or programming jobs all had a technical exam question they had to do to prepare for the interview.

Sorry, I should have been clearer - I meant that he was unique in going above and beyond and spending unpaid hours on it. Doing exams is definitely not unique...

[MassDebater]

I disagree about the best ones won't do the test, I did it And we're in the exact position where we can't just hope that they will work out in the real World without testing them in some practical way. In my 25 years (15 ish being involved in some of the interview phases), even guys with 20+ years experience on a CV have been unable to provide  a simple test (practical or written / verbal), whereas some younglings have blown it out of the water and gone on to be excellent choices. Actually I'd say in my experience it's mostly the Uni trained ones who are the worst, and can't think properly. Development isn't about writing the code, anyone can do that bit, it's about how your mind works...and even graduates can't fake that.

I really hope I made it clear that it wasn't always the case that the best won't do it!!

However, I'd be willing to bet that your situation was unique.

Seems pretty standard for software jobs, all my mates who applied to early career or entry level data science, data analyst or programming jobs all had a technical exam question they had to do to prepare for the interview.

Sorry, I should have been clearer - I meant that he was unique in going above and beyond and spending unpaid hours on it. Doing exams is definitely not unique...

I could be unique since I even offered to take the job at a reduced rate (£4k less) until they were satisfied with my performance. Took a year to get back to the originally advertised salary, but was more than happy doing that as well as going above and beyond on the test. Just the way I was bought up i guess?!

Are you London based? Not heard of anyone paying for interviews etc... none of the agencies have mentioned it to us either as a strategy for attracting people.

[Borin' Baggie]

I disagree about the best ones won't do the test, I did it And we're in the exact position where we can't just hope that they will work out in the real World without testing them in some practical way. In my 25 years (15 ish being involved in some of the interview phases), even guys with 20+ years experience on a CV have been unable to provide  a simple test (practical or written / verbal), whereas some younglings have blown it out of the water and gone on to be excellent choices. Actually I'd say in my experience it's mostly the Uni trained ones who are the worst, and can't think properly. Development isn't about writing the code, anyone can do that bit, it's about how your mind works...and even graduates can't fake that.

I really hope I made it clear that it wasn't always the case that the best won't do it!!

However, I'd be willing to bet that your situation was unique.

Seems pretty standard for software jobs, all my mates who applied to early career or entry level data science, data analyst or programming jobs all had a technical exam question they had to do to prepare for the interview.

Sorry, I should have been clearer - I meant that he was unique in going above and beyond and spending unpaid hours on it. Doing exams is definitely not unique...

No, I know what you meant. They applied for the job, were given a set of exam-style questions and had to do that in order to prep for the interview where they were supposed to present their answer.

Don't know if they were paid for it, they all definitely spent unpaid hours to do it (or answered them at work if that counts).

[Tom Joad]

I'm genuinely curious - when you ask prospective employees to do an eight hour project - do you offer to compensate them for their time?

It's not an 8 hour project, it's a technical test that is up to them how long they spend on it. We do not use the code for anything other than an evaluation of them being able to code. Absolutely basic version you could boilerplate one in maybe 2 hours. As I say I spent 11 hours doing mine, because I wanted the job. Some places have much more time consuming and stringent talking interviews, nobody expects to get paid for that.

Do people taking any sort of exam get compensated? I suppose with us the compensation is a job that pays decent money?

I once dated a trainee chef, to get a job at one of the fancy hotels in Brum (the one on Five Ways island, i forget its name) they expected her to do a full week's shift to see how she performed, for zero money.

My Sons girlfriend, ( they are both at university ) wanted a part time job to get a bit of money put aside. She applied at a care home, had an interview, ( she visits my mother in law in a home and is great with her ), they wanted her to do a month with no pay as `A Training Period `.

Maybe they should give potential residents the same offer. You know, come and stay for a month without charge and if you like it, stay on?

[fuzzbox]

I disagree about the best ones won't do the test, I did it And we're in the exact position where we can't just hope that they will work out in the real World without testing them in some practical way. In my 25 years (15 ish being involved in some of the interview phases), even guys with 20+ years experience on a CV have been unable to provide  a simple test (practical or written / verbal), whereas some younglings have blown it out of the water and gone on to be excellent choices. Actually I'd say in my experience it's mostly the Uni trained ones who are the worst, and can't think properly. Development isn't about writing the code, anyone can do that bit, it's about how your mind works...and even graduates can't fake that.

I really hope I made it clear that it wasn't always the case that the best won't do it!!

However, I'd be willing to bet that your situation was unique.

Seems pretty standard for software jobs, all my mates who applied to early career or entry level data science, data analyst or programming jobs all had a technical exam question they had to do to prepare for the interview.

Sorry, I should have been clearer - I meant that he was unique in going above and beyond and spending unpaid hours on it. Doing exams is definitely not unique...

I could be unique since I even offered to take the job at a reduced rate (£4k less) until they were satisfied with my performance.  Took a year to get back to the originally advertised salary, but was more than happy doing that as well as going above and beyond on the test. Just the way I was bought up i guess?!

Are you London based? Not heard of anyone paying for interviews etc... none of the agencies have mentioned it to us either as a strategy for attracting people.

US and London.

I can tell you now that agencies won't tell you how you can beat your competition. I've got nothing against agencies but unfortunately, the way the 'no win, no fee' industry is set up there is no incentive to help you get an offer accepted. If it's a good candidate they know they will get a job somewhere, so they are going to get paid regardless. If you 'muddy the waters' by offering something different you're just creating more work for them.

[Tom Joad]

On the subject of agencies. Someone I know registered with one and was found a job by them. After a while he was contacted by them and urged to apply for another job. He did and got it. Upshot being, the agency got paid for his placement and were able to fill the vacancy he left behind. I'm not a fan.

[MassDebater]

I really hope I made it clear that it wasn't always the case that the best won't do it!!

However, I'd be willing to bet that your situation was unique.

Seems pretty standard for software jobs, all my mates who applied to early career or entry level data science, data analyst or programming jobs all had a technical exam question they had to do to prepare for the interview.

Sorry, I should have been clearer - I meant that he was unique in going above and beyond and spending unpaid hours on it. Doing exams is definitely not unique...

I could be unique since I even offered to take the job at a reduced rate (£4k less) until they were satisfied with my performance.  Took a year to get back to the originally advertised salary, but was more than happy doing that as well as going above and beyond on the test. Just the way I was bought up i guess?!

Are you London based? Not heard of anyone paying for interviews etc... none of the agencies have mentioned it to us either as a strategy for attracting people.

US and London.

I can tell you now that agencies won't tell you how you can beat your competition. I've got nothing against agencies but unfortunately, the way the 'no win, no fee' industry is set up there is no incentive to help you get an offer accepted. If it's a good candidate they know they will get a job somewhere, so they are going to get paid regardless. If you 'muddy the waters' by offering something different you're just creating more work for them.

TBF the agencies are all garbage, and we've caught them not telling the truth to the potential candidates. And then they've not been honest with us by saying they've vetted the candidates.

---

Although ironically it was an agency that got me this job. Although she was actually a financial agent who'd contacted me on the off chance as ger client was looking for IT bids too. She was exceptional. The actual dedicated IT agencies are garbage, from a candidate and company angle.