09-06-2020, 06:19 PM
(09-06-2020, 04:52 PM)Squid Wrote: Borin -
1) You are arguing for Self-ID. You haven't actually referred to anything concrete other than "My friend says". Self-ID would lead to all the problems I have stated above.
For those who apply for a GRC, the vast majority obtain one, as can be see here: https://questions-statements.parliament....-06/105995
2)Children being given puberty blockers have problems far beyond sporting participation. This will become one of the greatest medical scandals of our time. Again, I know you don't care about that either.
3) You appear to be opposed to single sex spaces because you are happy to let the opposite sex enter them.
4) Why should trans women who have clearly lived as women be forced into male prison populations where they're at risk?
Why are they at risk? Would that be from violent men? Funny you have so little to say about this. Anyway, they've opened a special unit for them for trans women, they can go there. Again, you refer to legislation when you mean policy.
Now to your questions:
QTrans women and trans men being forced into single sex spaces by virtue of their birth regardless of their level of transition and the risks posed by them or posed to them?
ATrans women are male and by all evidence retain male patterns of criminal offending. So they can either use male spaces or campaign for third spaces.
Again, you aren't thinking this through. Does this mean you are happy for female police/customs officers to have to strip search transwomen, even if the transwomen retain their male genitalia (as most do).
Q Trans women who have no biological advantage by virtue of how they've transitioned being banned from recreational sport?
They all retain an advantage. Please see Ross Tucker's extensive work on this.
Q Trans men and women being unable to legally change their gender regardless of the level of their transition and evidence over lifestyle?
A I am happy with the current legislation.
Q Trans women who have undergone full surgery and being on hormones for a long period of time to be forced into male changing facilities or toilets?
These are very, very rare. Most trans women retain male genitalia and many don't take hormones. Again, I would want third spaces.
For further evidence of why, please see
https://www.womenarehuman.com/
1) No, I'm not. I'm arguing for a more streamlined system to parallel timelines for medical treatment as the current system is far too bureaucratic and needs to be adjusted to allow for representative legal representation. If I were arguing for self ID then I would have said that. The point of "my friend says" is that there is clearly an issue that he is experiencing owing to how gender recognition certificates are handled through their legal processes and I have been exposed to that issue while he doesn't give a shit about all the other crap. Do you know anyone who is trans?
Please do read the statistics Phillip Lee provided and go through the follow through links. Notice how small the numbers are? This is in line with one of the criticisms of the GRA as presented in Parliament by the Equalities Office that suggest that only 1-5% of all trans people in the UK are going or have through the process. The system clearly needs to be streamlined as the statistics being, whether that be putting legal recognition in line with medical referrals, streamlining the process for the tribunals or whatever.
2) I do care about children being given puberty blockers and the potential medical effects of reversals, what I don't care about is discussing it when it is entirely irrelevant to anything being discussed and is clearly a deflection away from the crux at the issue being discussed and is being discussed by two people, as far as I know, are not authorities on the medical implications on a football messaging board. The point is, and as I said whether you like it or not it is the point and these people exist, trans women who were on puberty blockers exist, they have not gone through androgenisation and therefore the biological advantages of exposure to androgens in sport do not apply. You brought up Ross Tucker, do go read what he has said and note how his work is in reference to biological differences created due to the exposure to androgens and please note how therefore your point is not applicable to what I said.
3) I am not opposed to same sex spaces, you are making that up. I do not want to put every self identifying trans woman inmate in female prisons, I do not want the clauses outlined in the EA 2010 that allow for trans exemptions to single sex spaces to be removed. This is why I've been on about the GRA and said that the EA 2010 and all it's clauses are irrelevant to the discussion, they're separate.
4) First, I mean government published guidelines and not legislation nor policy but this isn't an English exam and you knew what I was on about.
Second, they were in a male prison so not shit they were exposed to violent men. I do not know what those men did to the dead prisoners, I don't know why those prisoners decided to end their lives and I don't know what was in their head.
Thirdly, I'm criticising the guidance that led to Karen White being put into a female prison so I'm utterly bemused as to why you're having a go at me for it.
Trans women are male and by all evidence retain male patterns of criminal offending. So they can either use male spaces or campaign for third spaces.
If there's no third spaces available and they've fully transition then putting them in a male space is stupid and dangerous.
Does this mean you are happy for female police/customs officers to have to strip search transwomen, even if the transwomen retain their male genitalia (as most do).
I am happy for the appropriate measures to be done for searches and access to doctors relative to the level of transition of the individual, if they've got a penis then it wouldn't be appropriate for a female to check them and after everything else I've written I'm baffled that you think otherwise. Literally why I keep harping on about it being nuanced.
They all retain an advantage. Please see Ross Tucker's extensive work on this.
Read what? Ross Tucker's work on how androgens can cause a sporting advantage? Do note that the people I'm on about haven't gone through androgenisation and would be on hormone treatment, therefore the biological advantages in that regard would be moot.
I am happy with the current legislation.
You're happy with the current gender recognition legislation despite it being statistically not fit for purpose owing to the really numbers able to go through the process to get a certificate which in turn inhibits legal rights such as getting accurate marriage certificates, insurance, pension provisions, consistent legal records to get job and a myriad of other legal issues? Or you're happy with the equality act legislation that you're constantly referring to despite me not being on about it? Because the former does not restrict the latter, and getting legal rights does not force changes
This is why I keep saying what you're on about is irrelevant, because it is. I literally tried to explain in my second comment on this thread that issues being pushed by militant factions (in reference to changing the latter) are causing the crux of the issue (legal representation issues) to go under the radar.
"We want to be absolutely clear – we are not proposing to amend the existing equality exceptions relating to single- and separate- sex services in the Equality Act. It will still be possible to exclude individuals with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment from single or separate sex services where doing so is a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim. The fact a trans person has legal gender recognition will form part of a service provider’s decision as to whether to provide a different, or even no service to a trans person, but having a GRC is not a complete answer." - From the GRA consultation, changes that affect single-sex spaces aren't relevant to what I've said, you brought them up and I haven't bothered arguing them because I really can't be fucked to play devil's advocate for a something I don't want changing. It's also why your assertions that I somehow do support the eradication of single-sex spaces is really pissing me off.
These are very, very rare. Most trans women retain male genitalia and many don't take hormones.
So? They still exist. Hence why it needs to be nuanced and why it isn't a black and white thing.
