UK Covid death toll

[baggy1]

https://www.bitchute.com/video/LBeo24BvA5PU/

Is this Billy in disguise? Worth a listen if you have time. It very much supports much of what Billy says on here and its from the mouth of someone with a very strong respiratory pharmacol background.

I genuinely don't know who I believe any more. Vallance and Van Tam or Yeadon and Gupta. All vastly experienced in their fields but seem to be poles apart.

I find myself distrusting Vallance more and more given they are working so closely with the most untrustworthy and corrupt govt in my lifetime.

Compelling evidence on the face of it, but I still maintain that if you torture the stats enough
you can produce data or graphs that supports any view either side of the debate.

I prefer to put what faith I have in those on the front line in this battle against the virus. They
tell me that they have never faced anything like what they have been fighting for the past 9
months in ICU. Winters have come and gone, but they have witnessed illness and deaths like
no other year since they can remember. In point of fact, the second wave that so many deny is
happening, has claimed more victims that the first wave back in April/May. One said to me that
the politicians and SAGE are not in charge anymore than those that oppose, the virus is in
control again and only the advances in treatment and much more effective PPE is preventing
the situation becoming out of control.

As counterintuitive as that might sound because we clearly have less deaths this time, you can see that when you look at the attachment which is for people in hospital. Even though the peak isn't as high, the rising increase in numbers is spread over a longer period than earlier in the year. This means that people are taking up hospital beds for longer (for a good reason btw - they aren't dying) and if the decrease of the wave is the same as before then it will mean that this has taken more resource (staff time and beds) than the 1st wave although the 1st wave was more deadly.

In simple terms it took 24 days to get from 1,500 in hospital to the peak of 17k, whereas this time it has taken 60 days to reach this peak from 1,500 to 13.5k. It will have taken a lot more resource and stamina from NHS staff this time.

[billybassett]

I don't want to go round the houses again but for clarity you're confirming that:

all the patients on that graph definitely HAVE Covid
they are all symptomatic
they were ADMITTED to hospital with covid
they are being treated FOR covid and no other ailment

As for excess deaths and covid deaths just for clarity you're confirming that

they all died OF covid

I actually found this yesterday https://lockdownsceptics.org/

Some interesting articles and one with some interesting Qs:

Why are SARS-CoV-2 antibody levels flat or dropping across all age groups since May if the pandemic is still going?

What percentage of the population is assumed to have had prior immunity to SARS-CoV-2 in the SAGE forecasting models?

Why do 50% of household members not catch SARS-CoV-2 from infected persons with whom they live?

Why have Japan and South Korea not had any serious outbreak if the human species has no prior immunity to SARS-CoV-2?

What percentage of the population of the UK is assumed to be immune to COVID-19 (including prior immunity) as of this date?

What percentage of those diagnosed with COVID-19 since July have developed antibodies to COVID-19, confirming the diagnosis?

If 90%+ (SAGE Minutes: 21/09/20) of the population is still susceptible to SARS-CoV-2, why did the virus case numbers and deaths not double every 3-4 days throughout June, July and August, and indeed throughout the Autumn?

Why have positive test results rocketed while numbers of symptomatic patients in the community and NHS triage data show they have flatlined since mid-September?

Why are acute respiratory admissions through Accident & Emergency significantly below the normal for the time of year if the pandemic is still raging?

Why are total hospital admissions, ITU occupancy and hospital oxygen consumption at or below normal levels for the time of year?

What percentage of deaths labelled as being due to COVID-19 have had the diagnosis confirmed at post-mortem since July?

Why are the regions of the country that have had excess deaths not the same regions that have supposed COVID-19 deaths, unlike in spring?

Why has Liverpool testing by the Army failed to find COVID-19 in the community when they are supposedly at the centre of the alleged “second wave”?

How is a 0.22% rate of diagnosed infection in the public in Liverpool to be reconciled with the ONS prediction of 2.3% infection rates in Liverpool on 11th November based on PCR testing?

Why are much quicker lateral flow tests not being prioritised for hospital admissions to prevent the standard 24-48 hour delay with PCR results and ensure that those who are positive can be isolated to prevent hospital spread?

Why aren’t all staff being tested by the lateral flow test to prevent the staffing crisis being caused by false positive PCR results?

Do positive PCR tests for asymptomatic and symptomatic NHS staff, or anyone else, which result in them being required to self-isolate have confirmatory re-tests performed?

Why is the country in lockdown when there are no excess hospital admissions, no excess intensive care bed use and no excess death rates (by date of occurrence) in the midst of an allegedly out of control, raging pandemic?

Why are we in lockdown when the Government’s own Operation Cygnus pandemic plan stated that lockdown could only delay deaths by a few weeks at most?

What evidence is there that lockdown has prevented more deaths than it has caused?

[baggy1]

You're getting desperate to prove a point now and it shows. Instead of me answering each of those loaded questions, answer me one - if the excess death figure that we are having this year isn't covid, what is it?

We are having a mild season with minimal social interaction (meaning less virus spread) so it's unlikely to be flu, what has caused 2k excess deaths in the last week measured (to 13th Nov)?

---

And I'll try and answer your questions as we go but just on the location on the excess deaths, they are in the regions where covid is

North East: 104
North West: 548
Yorkshire and The Humber: 280
East Midlands: 210
West Midlands: 237
East:- 82
London: 71
South East: (74)
South West: 85
Wales: 68

Just this basic 1st check of your questions shows how much you take as true from reading it on social media. You really need to start checking your 'facts' before spouting them.

[baggiebuckster]

You're getting desperate to prove a point now and it shows. Instead of me answering each of those loaded questions, answer me one - if the excess death figure that we are having this year isn't covid, what is it?

We are having a mild season with minimal social interaction (meaning less virus spread) so it's unlikely to be flu, what has caused 2k excess deaths in the last week measured (to 13th Nov)?

---

And I'll try and answer your questions as we go but just on the location on the excess deaths, they are in the regions where covid is

North East: 104
North West: 548
Yorkshire and The Humber: 280
East Midlands: 210
West Midlands: 237
East:- 82
London: 71
South East: (74)
South West: 85
Wales: 68

Just this basic 1st check of your questions shows how much you take as true from reading it on social media. You really need to start checking your 'facts' before spouting them.

So why is it Covid then? Is that not party to the minimal social interaction?

I am not so sure that everything is as black and white as you paint it Baggy1.

Obviously the majority of the excess deaths for the year are due to Covid but most of those came in the spring.

More recently how many of those weekly 2k excess deaths are at home? According to BMJ around 140 excess deaths a day are occurring at home which is unlikely to be people suffering with Covid and more likely to be a result of other factors that have been impacted by this pandemic.

[baggy1]

People have always died at home BB, that isn't new. More people have died at home this year because it was more dangerous for them to go to hospital, did that mean that they didn't get the treatment that would have kept them alive, probably / possibly. Is it significant a number to make a dent on the excess deaths for the year, probably not.

We have 2k excess deaths in week 46, this coincides with hospitalisations for covid being raised. Birmingham and Solihull hospitals have got three covid hospitals and have kept Solihull covid-free but are looking to transfer covid patients to Solihull now because the other 3 are nearing capacity. This isn't me making it up, or interpreting figures to suit my point, these are logical reading of data and cold hard facts from the horses mouth.

And then you have to ask the basic question, why. Why would the government be putting these figures out, why would they be covering up the 'other' reason for more deaths than normal? Are the hospitals in on it, all the doctors, nurses, the coroners, the statisticians?

[baggiebuckster]

I know people have always died at home - I said that 140 excess deaths a day are happening at home.

People have always died in hospitals too but you were referring to excess deaths which is what I am stating. 

If 140 excess deaths a day are at home then that means that half of that excess 2000 figure are people who most likely did not die of Covid.

Why would the Government cover up the other figures you ask? I never said that they were but they are not the most honest Govt we have ever had are they? Doctors, nurses ,coroners etc don't have to be 'in on it'. If someone dies in hospital and has a positive test then they go in the stats as you know. My Dad fell down the stairs 4 weeks ago and fractured his spine - he was in a bad way for a few days. He was tested whilst in hospital - if that test had been positive he would have been included as 'a covid hospital case' where the truth was he was actually being treated for his spine.

[baggy1]

I know people have always died at home - I said that 140 excess deaths a day are happening at home.

People have always died in hospitals too but you were referring to excess deaths which is what I am stating. 

If 140 excess deaths a day are at home then that means that half of that excess 2000 figure are people who most likely did not die of Covid.

Why would the Government cover up the other figures you ask? I never said that they were but they are not the most honest Govt we have ever had are they? Doctors, nurses ,coroners etc don't have to be 'in on it'. If someone dies in hospital and has a positive test then they go in the stats as you know. My Dad fell down the stairs 4 weeks ago and fractured his spine - he was in a bad way for a few days. He was tested whilst in hospital - if that test had been positive he would have been included as 'a covid hospital case' where the truth was he was actually being treated for his spine.

Hospitals weren't accepting people during the pandemic therefore they died at home, that is why there is more people died at home this year than normal. And again someone is being naughty with the figures here. Deaths at home for the period to September (I can't find anything else) is up about 27k on normal in E&W, in a period where hospitals were mainly shut this doesn't surprise me. And of those 27k would all of them have survived if they'd have gone to hospital, probably not - do we know how many, definitely not. It's just a stat thrown in to muddy the water.

There is one big difference this year and that is Covid, if you know of anything else that has caused about a 15% increase in deaths then let me know.

[billybassett]

I know people have always died at home - I said that 140 excess deaths a day are happening at home.

People have always died in hospitals too but you were referring to excess deaths which is what I am stating. 

If 140 excess deaths a day are at home then that means that half of that excess 2000 figure are people who most likely did not die of Covid.

Why would the Government cover up the other figures you ask? I never said that they were but they are not the most honest Govt we have ever had are they? Doctors, nurses ,coroners etc don't have to be 'in on it'. If someone dies in hospital and has a positive test then they go in the stats as you know. My Dad fell down the stairs 4 weeks ago and fractured his spine - he was in a bad way for a few days. He was tested whilst in hospital - if that test had been positive he would have been included as 'a covid hospital case' where the truth was he was actually being treated for his spine.

In know this to be the case in many personal contacts I have.


Baggy1 calling me desperate is a tragic irony as I asked some simple questions at the top about that he won't answer.

The fact is there's no way at this moment that all, if any, excess deaths are OF Covid. You would literally see symptomatic people every where you went based on the "case" rate. We don't. Also the mass testing in Liverpool has completely disproved that the virus is rife and symptomatic.

Nobody is arguing that lots died tragically in the spring - many due to being sent back to die at home or care home without treatment. I am not sure any of the data currently shows that excess deaths are from covid. That's all I asked baggy1 to confirm.

To believe this statement: "That all excess deaths, where they died 28 days within a positive test from covid, are all deaths from Covid" is either to wilfully misinterpret the data for another means or to be genuinely naive.

[baggy1]

What is causing the current excess then?

Let me put it another way - There are 2k more deaths than normal for week 46. Do you think that there were more or less than 2k covid deaths in that week, if you agree that there were probably about 2k covid deaths in week 46 then the excess deaths will be down to covid because we didn't have it in week 46 of 2019. It really is that simple.

If you don't believe that there are any covid deaths any more then you need to ask why there are 2k more deaths than normal.

I'm struggling to understand why you both don't get such a basic principle of measuring excess deaths.

[Derek Hardballs]

What is causing the current excess then?

Let me put it another way - There are 2k more deaths than normal for week 46. Do you think that there were more or less than 2k covid deaths in that week, if you agree that there were probably about 2k covid deaths in week 46 then the excess deaths will be down to covid because we didn't have it in week 46 of 2019. It really is that simple.

If you don't believe that there are any covid deaths any more then you need to ask why there are 2k more deaths than normal.

I'm struggling to understand why you both don't get such a basic principle of measuring excess deaths.

Because if you don't believe, you can then justify your position with regards to going back to normal.