UK Covid death toll

[backsidebaggie]

The knock on effect is that hundreds if not thousands of lives have been saved, thousands have been kept out of hospital and for the last five months life for the majority has been close to normal. Which fair enough, is obviously a happy accident.

I don't think you're anti-vax fwiw and I get the point r.e forcing people to do things. However, your big picture argument has to take into account that these vaccines only exist because we're in the middle of a pandemic that has killed millions across the globe. Scientists didn't wake up 12 months ago and think "fuck me, let's plough people full of this funky serum and see what flys". The big picture, to me, would suggest that there is nothing gained to society by having us locked down or restricted. They aren't going to start vaccinating people with things for no reason.

I talked about the knock on effects of mandation and state control. The knock on effect of saving lives is not a knock on effect. That's a direct effect.

I fully believe these vaccines will be forever. I hope I'm wrong.

I also think many many parents believe there is no reason to vaccinate kids, I know some parents (who are vaccinated themselves) that are adamant their kids won't be having it.

But that's the point. If rampant state control and mandation was to happen, it would have by now. The only reason it's happening now are because of the huge direct benefits of the vaccination programme. I don't care if they're forever, it takes twenty minutes to get a jab and I tend to have a yearly flu jab anyway. If it means we can continue living free unaffected lives then what problem. Giving members one injection per year does not equal mass state control and coercion for me.

I disagree. State control happens slowly and steadily. Mandation is starting abroad. Singapore has a near 100% take up but still had restriction in October after a sharp rise in cases and hospitalisations.

And as I've said, medical automony is crucial in many aspects. Many people don't care if its forever. But many do.

The question is, do you care if people are fined/imprisoned/can't work for not taking a vaccine they don't want, perhaps even if they've had covid already? Is that a world you want to live in? Do any knock on effects worry you? Does this being a thin end of the wedge worry you? There's a big picture.

What worries me most is that people would still argue against having it despite the fact that Covid is far more likely to make you seriously ill and kill you than having the vaccine will. This is what I struggle with. 

When I say this I would obviously exclude those who are medically exempt from having it.

What about for those who have already had it, even twice? But that's not my point, its the bigger picture.

---

The big picture is the numbers in hospital graph here: Healthcare in UK

If you look at the trends during 2020 compare with 2021 they are virtually identical curves until it reaches the start of August 2021 where it changes. It is no coincidence that by August we over 80% of the population with one dose and over 65% with both. I really don't see what other reason there is for the curve being broken and if we as a nation think that we don't need to have that 80% plus level of vaccination kept up for the short term at least then we will drift into other restrictions. This will continue until the globe catches up and the virus doesn't have a region to mutate and spread in.

---

Where are the stats stating that our vaccination programme is more successful?  Is that based on percentage of double jabbed?

Sorry bucks, more successful in what way?

No that's not the bigger picture. That's the direct effect.

Why will 80% plus work, given what happened in Singapore?

[baggiebuckster]

So bb, in this country what restrictions on our freedom are in place, and if the vaccination program hasn't given us the freedoms we want what has - I've already given you the comparable stats between this year and last and the difference is that we have had the vaccine. Now you will argue that there is an increased level of immunity from having had Covid, but that is the same across central europe and they are facing a much worse wave than us. The only difference being the vaccination programme being more successful over here.

I was referring to this quote from you

[baggy1]

[quote="backsidebaggie" pid="433298" dateline="1638465237"]

I talked about the knock on effects of mandation and state control. The knock on effect of saving lives is not a knock on effect. That's a direct effect.

I fully believe these vaccines will be forever. I hope I'm wrong.

I also think many many parents believe there is no reason to vaccinate kids, I know some parents (who are vaccinated themselves) that are adamant their kids won't be having it.

But that's the point. If rampant state control and mandation was to happen, it would have by now. The only reason it's happening now are because of the huge direct benefits of the vaccination programme. I don't care if they're forever, it takes twenty minutes to get a jab and I tend to have a yearly flu jab anyway. If it means we can continue living free unaffected lives then what problem. Giving members one injection per year does not equal mass state control and coercion for me.

I disagree. State control happens slowly and steadily. Mandation is starting abroad. Singapore has a near 100% take up but still had restriction in October after a sharp rise in cases and hospitalisations.

And as I've said, medical automony is crucial in many aspects. Many people don't care if its forever. But many do.

The question is, do you care if people are fined/imprisoned/can't work for not taking a vaccine they don't want, perhaps even if they've had covid already? Is that a world you want to live in? Do any knock on effects worry you? Does this being a thin end of the wedge worry you? There's a big picture.

What worries me most is that people would still argue against having it despite the fact that Covid is far more likely to make you seriously ill and kill you than having the vaccine will. This is what I struggle with. 

When I say this I would obviously exclude those who are medically exempt from having it.

What about for those who have already had it, even twice? But that's not my point, its the bigger picture.

---

The big picture is the numbers in hospital graph here: Healthcare in UK

If you look at the trends during 2020 compare with 2021 they are virtually identical curves until it reaches the start of August 2021 where it changes. It is no coincidence that by August we over 80% of the population with one dose and over 65% with both. I really don't see what other reason there is for the curve being broken and if we as a nation think that we don't need to have that 80% plus level of vaccination kept up for the short term at least then we will drift into other restrictions. This will continue until the globe catches up and the virus doesn't have a region to mutate and spread in.

---

No that's not the bigger picture. That's the direct effect.

Why will 80% plus work, given what happened in Singapore?

What has happened in Singapore? 88% vaccination, lots of cases and 1,500 in hospital from what I read - Is Singapore the new Sweden on Twitter by any chance?

---

So bb, in this country what restrictions on our freedom are in place, and if the vaccination program hasn't given us the freedoms we want what has - I've already given you the comparable stats between this year and last and the difference is that we have had the vaccine. Now you will argue that there is an increased level of immunity from having had Covid, but that is the same across central europe and they are facing a much worse wave than us. The only difference being the vaccination programme being more successful over here.

I was referring to this quote from you

We have a higher number vaccinated %wise than the central european countries don't we?

[baggiebuckster]

I am on my phone so hard to be sure but this doesn't seem to indicate we are particularly much different from many countries.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021...acker.html

[backsidebaggie]

I talked about the knock on effects of mandation and state control. The knock on effect of saving lives is not a knock on effect. That's a direct effect.

I fully believe these vaccines will be forever. I hope I'm wrong.

I also think many many parents believe there is no reason to vaccinate kids, I know some parents (who are vaccinated themselves) that are adamant their kids won't be having it.

But that's the point. If rampant state control and mandation was to happen, it would have by now. The only reason it's happening now are because of the huge direct benefits of the vaccination programme. I don't care if they're forever, it takes twenty minutes to get a jab and I tend to have a yearly flu jab anyway. If it means we can continue living free unaffected lives then what problem. Giving members one injection per year does not equal mass state control and coercion for me.

I disagree. State control happens slowly and steadily. Mandation is starting abroad. Singapore has a near 100% take up but still had restriction in October after a sharp rise in cases and hospitalisations.

And as I've said, medical automony is crucial in many aspects. Many people don't care if its forever. But many do.

The question is, do you care if people are fined/imprisoned/can't work for not taking a vaccine they don't want, perhaps even if they've had covid already? Is that a world you want to live in? Do any knock on effects worry you? Does this being a thin end of the wedge worry you? There's a big picture.

What worries me most is that people would still argue against having it despite the fact that Covid is far more likely to make you seriously ill and kill you than having the vaccine will. This is what I struggle with. 

When I say this I would obviously exclude those who are medically exempt from having it.

What about for those who have already had it, even twice? But that's not my point, its the bigger picture.

---

The big picture is the numbers in hospital graph here: Healthcare in UK

If you look at the trends during 2020 compare with 2021 they are virtually identical curves until it reaches the start of August 2021 where it changes. It is no coincidence that by August we over 80% of the population with one dose and over 65% with both. I really don't see what other reason there is for the curve being broken and if we as a nation think that we don't need to have that 80% plus level of vaccination kept up for the short term at least then we will drift into other restrictions. This will continue until the globe catches up and the virus doesn't have a region to mutate and spread in.

---

No that's not the bigger picture. That's the direct effect.

Why will 80% plus work, given what happened in Singapore?

What has happened in Singapore? 88% vaccination, lots of cases and 1,500 in hospital from what I read - Is Singapore the new Sweden on Twitter by any chance?

---

So bb, in this country what restrictions on our freedom are in place, and if the vaccination program hasn't given us the freedoms we want what has - I've already given you the comparable stats between this year and last and the difference is that we have had the vaccine. Now you will argue that there is an increased level of immunity from having had Covid, but that is the same across central europe and they are facing a much worse wave than us. The only difference being the vaccination programme being more successful over here.

I was referring to this quote from you

We have a higher number vaccinated %wise than the central european countries don't we?

Singapore has the highest vax rate in the world (bar the odd small island), and still had an enormous wave in October.

That casts severe doubt on our rate being enough to stop another bad wave. Does it not?

[baggy1]

---

The big picture is the numbers in hospital graph here: Healthcare in UK

If you look at the trends during 2020 compare with 2021 they are virtually identical curves until it reaches the start of August 2021 where it changes. It is no coincidence that by August we over 80% of the population with one dose and over 65% with both. I really don't see what other reason there is for the curve being broken and if we as a nation think that we don't need to have that 80% plus level of vaccination kept up for the short term at least then we will drift into other restrictions. This will continue until the globe catches up and the virus doesn't have a region to mutate and spread in.

---

No that's not the bigger picture. That's the direct effect.

Why will 80% plus work, given what happened in Singapore?

What has happened in Singapore? 88% vaccination, lots of cases and 1,500 in hospital from what I read - Is Singapore the new Sweden on Twitter by any chance?






Singapore has the highest vax rate in the world (bar the odd small island), and still had an enormous wave in October.

That casts severe doubt on our rate being enough to stop another bad wave. Does it not?

I've already explained in the numbers that we are also having a huge wave, 75% of the peak of our worst wave. But that isn't resulting in hospitalisation here, or by the looks of it, in Singapore.

---

I am on my phone so hard to be sure but this doesn't seem to indicate we are particularly much different from many countries.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021...acker.html

Germany are the nearest to us in numbers vaccinated and they have less % vaccinated with a bigger population and you need to look at the timing of it as well - the figures on there are at a point in time when they have just had a massive push and vaccination programme, we have been at this position for a while now. When the wave hit them they had a much lower number when we were already in a good place.

[backsidebaggie]

---

The big picture is the numbers in hospital graph here: Healthcare in UK

If you look at the trends during 2020 compare with 2021 they are virtually identical curves until it reaches the start of August 2021 where it changes. It is no coincidence that by August we over 80% of the population with one dose and over 65% with both. I really don't see what other reason there is for the curve being broken and if we as a nation think that we don't need to have that 80% plus level of vaccination kept up for the short term at least then we will drift into other restrictions. This will continue until the globe catches up and the virus doesn't have a region to mutate and spread in.

---

No that's not the bigger picture. That's the direct effect.

Why will 80% plus work, given what happened in Singapore?

What has happened in Singapore? 88% vaccination, lots of cases and 1,500 in hospital from what I read - Is Singapore the new Sweden on Twitter by any chance?






Singapore has the highest vax rate in the world (bar the odd small island), and still had an enormous wave in October.

That casts severe doubt on our rate being enough to stop another bad wave. Does it not?

I've already explained in the numbers that we are also having a huge wave, 75% of the peak of our worst wave. But that isn't resulting in hospitalisation here, or by the looks of it, in Singapore.

---

I am on my phone so hard to be sure but this doesn't seem to indicate we are particularly much different from many countries.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021...acker.html

Germany are the nearest to us in numbers vaccinated and they have less % vaccinated with a bigger population and you need to look at the timing of it as well - the figures on there are at a point in time when they have just had a massive push and vaccination programme, we have been at this position for a while now. When the wave hit them they had a much lower number when we were already in a good place.

Hope you're right, and I honestly do think your stat analysis is very very good.

But I can only see this pattern continuing. I hope I'm wrong.

[Tom Joad]

So are you saying everyone is either pro Vax and follows the experts like you do or a complete anti vaxxer like your mate?

The majority of people against these mandates are at neither end of that scale.

Exactly, and its staggering that we have to keep reminding people of that. Its incredible how easy it is to cause division.

Its also staggering that people seem to think policies can be based on experts in a field, which are certainly NOT experts in all fields that are intertwined in a complex system that is society in general.

I'm repeating myself again, but I'm bloody amazed how many people can't see the bigger picture here. Scientists recommend vaccines, so its fine to mandate (for some). Really?????? My god the implications are huge!

Whoa there!  At no point have I said that. My point was in the spirit of the thread in general and not part of your pet subject. I've waited for a chance to meet this guy as he normally is a decent conversationalist and I'm actually interested how he comes to be of that opinion.
 FWIW, I am also uneasy at the idea of compulsory vaccinations but I have yet to hear a truly reasoned argument against it.  All I get is self styled freedom fighters complaining they aren't free. Well I'm going for a few pints tonight before going to work tomorrow to get ready for a weekend of watching football and meeting friends. What freedom are they seeking?

[Borin' Baggie]

So are you saying everyone is either pro Vax and follows the experts like you do or a complete anti vaxxer like your mate?

The majority of people against these mandates are at neither end of that scale.

Exactly, and its staggering that we have to keep reminding people of that. Its incredible how easy it is to cause division.

Its also staggering that people seem to think policies can be based on experts in a field, which are certainly NOT experts in all fields that are intertwined in a complex system that is society in general.

I'm repeating myself again, but I'm bloody amazed how many people can't see the bigger picture here. Scientists recommend vaccines, so its fine to mandate (for some). Really?????? My god the implications are huge!

Whoa there!  At no point have I said that. My point was in the spirit of the thread in general and not part of your pet subject. I've waited for a chance to meet this guy as he normally is a decent conversationalist and I'm actually interested how he comes to be of that opinion.
 FWIW, I am also uneasy at the idea of compulsory vaccinations but I have yet to hear a truly reasoned argument against it.  All I get is self styled freedom fighters complaining they aren't free. Well I'm going for a few pints tonight before going to work tomorrow to get ready for a weekend of watching football and meeting friends. What freedom are they seeking?

Unilateral alteration of the social contract between the state and the individual, particularly concerning in the context of governments not liking to hand back powers (anti-terrorism legislation) as well as the risk of a two tier society in turn inflicting collateral in those who fall into one camp through no fault of their own.

For what it's worth, everyone who is wilfully not getting vaccinated is a massive moron alongside those who don't wear masks.

[backsidebaggie]

So are you saying everyone is either pro Vax and follows the experts like you do or a complete anti vaxxer like your mate?

The majority of people against these mandates are at neither end of that scale.

Exactly, and its staggering that we have to keep reminding people of that. Its incredible how easy it is to cause division.

Its also staggering that people seem to think policies can be based on experts in a field, which are certainly NOT experts in all fields that are intertwined in a complex system that is society in general.

I'm repeating myself again, but I'm bloody amazed how many people can't see the bigger picture here. Scientists recommend vaccines, so its fine to mandate (for some). Really?????? My god the implications are huge!

Whoa there!  At no point have I said that. My point was in the spirit of the thread in general and not part of your pet subject. I've waited for a chance to meet this guy as he normally is a decent conversationalist and I'm actually interested how he comes to be of that opinion.
 FWIW, I am also uneasy at the idea of compulsory vaccinations but I have yet to hear a truly reasoned argument against it.  All I get is self styled freedom fighters complaining they aren't free. Well I'm going for a few pints tonight before going to work tomorrow to get ready for a weekend of watching football and meeting friends. What freedom are they seeking?

Sorry I didn’t mean you mate. I’m just concerned many have been persuaded it’s ok without thinking about wider implications.

---

So are you saying everyone is either pro Vax and follows the experts like you do or a complete anti vaxxer like your mate?

The majority of people against these mandates are at neither end of that scale.

Exactly, and its staggering that we have to keep reminding people of that. Its incredible how easy it is to cause division.

Its also staggering that people seem to think policies can be based on experts in a field, which are certainly NOT experts in all fields that are intertwined in a complex system that is society in general.

I'm repeating myself again, but I'm bloody amazed how many people can't see the bigger picture here. Scientists recommend vaccines, so its fine to mandate (for some). Really?????? My god the implications are huge!

Whoa there!  At no point have I said that. My point was in the spirit of the thread in general and not part of your pet subject. I've waited for a chance to meet this guy as he normally is a decent conversationalist and I'm actually interested how he comes to be of that opinion.
 FWIW, I am also uneasy at the idea of compulsory vaccinations but I have yet to hear a truly reasoned argument against it.  All I get is self styled freedom fighters complaining they aren't free. Well I'm going for a few pints tonight before going to work tomorrow to get ready for a weekend of watching football and meeting friends. What freedom are they seeking?

Unilateral alteration of the social contract between the state and the individual, particularly concerning in the context of governments not liking to hand back powers (anti-terrorism legislation) as well as the risk of a two tier society in turn inflicting collateral in those who fall into one camp through no fault of their own.

For what it's worth, everyone who is wilfully not getting vaccinated is a massive moron alongside those who don't wear masks.

That’s one thing if you think they’re a moron.. but do you think they should be segregated from society, fined, imprisoned etc? Or do you defend their right to be a moron. That’s the crucial point.

Do you think parents are morons for not vaccinating kids? I reckon that might cover half… just a guess.