UK Covid death toll

[billybassett]

Another interesting one on excess deaths

   

And wider

   

[baggy1]

Billy please stop posting about excess deaths, it isn't an issue if you don't know something but when it is pointed out to you that you are wrong with examples of how and why then just accept it.

---

Another interesting one on excess deaths



And wider

Apart from that also being incorrect (Jesus Christ Billy where do you get this data), you are measuring a subjective or field on a death certificate that is open to error not an objective measure such as simple excess deaths.

It's incorrect without looking too hard at it as it finishes on the 23rd Oct and that week ended had 10,739 deaths whereas the 5 year average number was 9,891 - a clear excess of 996. Your graph shows that there wasn't any excess death that week probably due to that random statement at the top that 'Around 5% of deaths are not included until 3 months from when the death occurred' - it's clearly wrong and you are just lapping it up and regurgitating it without checking.

[strawman]

Here's one for you Deko

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationa...tember2020

You think you're saving lives banging the everyone must be saved at all costs drum. You're probably actually killing more of them just slowly

---

Also extending my post re the army tests yesterday the govt has published:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/oxfor...=immediate

220 positive from 44k tests. False positive rate 0.36% positives rate 0.5%

So even though nobody actually responded to the info I put about this yesterday this is again a damning verdict once more in the sense that there are no positives in that batch of tests and the PCR test that is giving 2.5% positives is producing mainly false positives as I've been saying for months.

If the projections of cases and admissions was based on this data rather than what Sage would like with the PCR (so they can sell their tests and make money from a vaccine ) we'd now be living our lives normally and not.killing ourselves slowly.

But to do that of course would mean politicians and sage admitting they are wrong. I'd be better off searching for hens teeth rather than waiting for that.

I expect no response but you should really be writing to your mp about this fraud.

---

Possibly SM - if that's the case it isn't excess deaths and that's what I think Billy is getting confused over. To get a real understanding it has to be like for like.

I'm not confused about what excess deaths are. Seems like I'm the only one on here not confused by the PCR test invalidity though.

So you want to base predictions on cases and admissions on testing asymptomatic people, not people who actually have symptoms or even on real life cases, admissions and ICU occupancy. Nuts

[billybassett]

Here's one for you Deko

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationa...tember2020

You think you're saving lives banging the everyone must be saved at all costs drum. You're probably actually killing more of them just slowly

---

Also extending my post re the army tests yesterday the govt has published:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/oxfor...=immediate

220 positive from 44k tests. False positive rate 0.36% positives rate 0.5%

So even though nobody actually responded to the info I put about this yesterday this is again a damning verdict once more in the sense that there are no positives in that batch of tests and the PCR test that is giving 2.5% positives is producing mainly false positives as I've been saying for months.

If the projections of cases and admissions was based on this data rather than what Sage would like with the PCR (so they can sell their tests and make money from a vaccine ) we'd now be living our lives normally and not.killing ourselves slowly.

But to do that of course would mean politicians and sage admitting they are wrong. I'd be better off searching for hens teeth rather than waiting for that.

I expect no response but you should really be writing to your mp about this fraud.

---

Possibly SM - if that's the case it isn't excess deaths and that's what I think Billy is getting confused over. To get a real understanding it has to be like for like.

I'm not confused about what excess deaths are. Seems like I'm the only one on here not confused by the PCR test invalidity though.

So you want to base predictions on cases and admissions on testing asymptomatic people, not people who actually have symptoms or even on real life cases, admissions and ICU occupancy. Nuts

This is such a bizarre reply baggy1. I've never said anything such. Tells me a lot about where your mind is re this testing. The PCR test tests asymptomatic people. It tests literally thousands and thousands of them every day. Unless you're telling me seriously 300,000 people had symptoms yesterday. Obviously not.

I've said for months we shouldn't be testing anyone unless they show symptoms. I've consistently said we should also use a test that is fit for purpose, i.e. thermocycle les than 24 times, use 2 primers, publish the false positive rate (like they do on every other test - even the army one now is published so why not the PCR test FFS) and if a positive returns test then do a second test to confirm. That's called proper lab testing.

If, and only if, on that basis we had thousands of actual cases every day then yes I'd be worried. But we don't and the Liverpool army test goes to prove how wrong that PCR test is.

We've been living since June in a "casedemic" not an epidemic. I'd have thought the penny may have dropped for many but seemingly not, they can't get past "cases" as portrayed on BBC. I found it a little sinister in June that once the deaths chart wasn't a compelling graph all the MSM moved to a cases chart that had a nice rising curve.

Hospital admissions aren't stretched for this time of year (other than for the reason 1000s of nurses and doctors are being told to self isolate even though they are perfectly fine - all based on the PCR test again), excess deaths are in line for this time of year - but yes lets see how they get on as per my previous post with the graphs that's been ignored, lockdowns don't work and masks are a waste of time.

I'm surprised baggy1 that you slurr me for no reason but make no attempt to counter the army testing numbers.

[baggy1]

Here's one for you Deko

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationa...tember2020

You think you're saving lives banging the everyone must be saved at all costs drum. You're probably actually killing more of them just slowly

---

Also extending my post re the army tests yesterday the govt has published:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/oxfor...=immediate

220 positive from 44k tests. False positive rate 0.36% positives rate 0.5%

So even though nobody actually responded to the info I put about this yesterday this is again a damning verdict once more in the sense that there are no positives in that batch of tests and the PCR test that is giving 2.5% positives is producing mainly false positives as I've been saying for months.

If the projections of cases and admissions was based on this data rather than what Sage would like with the PCR (so they can sell their tests and make money from a vaccine ) we'd now be living our lives normally and not.killing ourselves slowly.

But to do that of course would mean politicians and sage admitting they are wrong. I'd be better off searching for hens teeth rather than waiting for that.

I expect no response but you should really be writing to your mp about this fraud.

---

Possibly SM - if that's the case it isn't excess deaths and that's what I think Billy is getting confused over. To get a real understanding it has to be like for like.

I'm not confused about what excess deaths are. Seems like I'm the only one on here not confused by the PCR test invalidity though.

So you want to base predictions on cases and admissions on testing asymptomatic people, not people who actually have symptoms or even on real life cases, admissions and ICU occupancy. Nuts

This is such a bizarre reply baggy1. I've never said anything such. Tells me a lot about where your mind is re this testing. The PCR test tests asymptomatic people. It tests literally thousands and thousands of them every day. Unless you're telling me seriously 300,000 people had symptoms yesterday. Obviously not.

I've said for months we shouldn't be testing anyone unless they show symptoms. I've consistently said we should also use a test that is fit for purpose, i.e. thermocycle les than 24 times, use 2 primers, publish the false positive rate (like they do on every other test - even the army one now is published so why not the PCR test FFS) and if a positive returns test then do a second test to confirm. That's called proper lab testing.

If, and only if, on that basis we had thousands of actual cases every day then yes I'd be worried. But we don't and the Liverpool army test goes to prove how wrong that PCR test is.

We've been living since June in a "casedemic" not an epidemic. I'd have thought the penny may have dropped for many but seemingly not, they can't get past "cases" as portrayed on BBC. I found it a little sinister in June that once the deaths chart wasn't a compelling graph all the MSM moved to a cases chart that had a nice rising curve.

Hospital admissions aren't stretched for this time of year (other than for the reason 1000s of nurses and doctors are being told to self isolate even though they are perfectly fine - all based on the PCR test again), excess deaths are in line for this time of year - but yes lets see how they get on as per my previous post with the graphs that's been ignored, lockdowns don't work and masks are a waste of time.

I'm surprised baggy1 that you slurr me for no reason but make no attempt to counter the army testing numbers.

Apart from the obvious fact that it isn't me that you have quoted there or slurred you I will attempt to answer the points with my views.

I've never once referred in all of the posts with a view on testing apart from early days saying it is pointless comparing testing data as it is inconsistent. It is also pointless taking about tests when you don't know how many individuals have been tested.

Testing people only with symptoms seems counterproductive when the general belief is that the disease can be spread by asymptomatic people. Testing en masse means that you can identify who has got it, even asymptomatic, and ask them to isolate and therefore reduce the spread until they have completed a two week period. That seems sensible to me.

I've no opinion on the testing and the success rate because I haven't looked at it, that is why I haven't made any opinions on it.

June is the summer and it wasn't spreading as much because we were outdoors and schools / unis were off. Those things have reversed now and we are seeing an increase in hospitalisations, who would have thought, eh? Again I've avoided talking about cases because it's a meaningless point unless you have 100% of the population tested - you keep asking me for an opinion on that, I've never talked about cases - see testing above.

You talk about hospital beds as if the whole hospital is one big dormitory and doctors / nurses as one big homogenous pot - there are 5900 ICU / CCU beds in England, there are a very limited number of critical care doctors and nurses as well. Covid treatment involves ICU / CCU mainly, when that starts spilling over into other areas then we have problems. Hospitalisations are increasing but happily seem to be slowing down, I'll update later when I get yesterday's figures in but it's looking positive. That is probably down to the higher tier lockdowns that occurred a few weeks ago in the north that has helped reduce the spread. We are over 2/3rds of the way to the maximum amount for April / May and it was heading to go well past it until measures were put in place - I've shown the figures consistently for the past few weeks.

Your graphs are at best misleading and if i'm honest basically shite - you don't understand the data behind them (comparing winter deaths with spring summer deaths is not excess deaths) and you put them out as if they are fact. 

So no I didn't slur you and you have got that carried away with proving your 'facts' that you think that I did somehow. I've kept to two simple facts throughout - excess deaths and hospitalisations. They are good indicators for this real threat that is happening and, I think, useful for people on here. As for tests and cases, you've got me mixed up with someone else as I've never bothered with them as they are pointless stats IMO.

[JOK]

The things you talk about protecting like people’s health, jobs etc affect me, my family, friends and colleagues just as much as yours. Just because I don’t agree with your opinions and that’s all they are, like mine, doesn’t mean I’m less intelligent or possess less foresight than you. There isn’t a binary mathematical answer to this problem. You can crunch all the numbers in any permutation but it still won’t give you a clear unambiguous answer to how to handle the situation. 

Last thing I start more threads on here than most which people have replied to and debated on. Yes I take the piss as do others out of me but the politics section is busier than it’s been in years, so I will keep on keepin’ on safe in the knowledge that whatever you, I or anyone else posts makes very little difference to anything.

 Then remember that next time before you use phrases such as these which you have used in the past:
 “cerebrally challenged working class Tories”.
“The hard of thinking”
“Brexiteers are liars”. 
“really trying not to imply anything about your gullibility”
 “Yes, but as we have seen throughout this fiasco those people are as thick as pig shit!”
All directed at people “Just because they don’t agree with your opinions”.  Glass houses, bricks and throwing and all that. 

Of course but I am not trying to win friends and influence people and I think Im doing fantastically well at this . I realise we are all just pissing in the wind on here. Which was what I said in the last paragraph.

You can write what you like (and do... frequently ) just don't pick up and criticise other posters for doing exactly what you do.

[Derek Hardballs]

The things you talk about protecting like people’s health, jobs etc affect me, my family, friends and colleagues just as much as yours. Just because I don’t agree with your opinions and that’s all they are, like mine, doesn’t mean I’m less intelligent or possess less foresight than you. There isn’t a binary mathematical answer to this problem. You can crunch all the numbers in any permutation but it still won’t give you a clear unambiguous answer to how to handle the situation. 

Last thing I start more threads on here than most which people have replied to and debated on. Yes I take the piss as do others out of me but the politics section is busier than it’s been in years, so I will keep on keepin’ on safe in the knowledge that whatever you, I or anyone else posts makes very little difference to anything.

 Then remember that next time before you use phrases such as these which you have used in the past:
 “cerebrally challenged working class Tories”.
“The hard of thinking”
“Brexiteers are liars”. 
“really trying not to imply anything about your gullibility”
 “Yes, but as we have seen throughout this fiasco those people are as thick as pig shit!”
All directed at people “Just because they don’t agree with your opinions”.  Glass houses, bricks and throwing and all that. 

Of course but I am not trying to win friends and influence people and I think Im doing fantastically well at this . I realise we are all just pissing in the wind on here. Which was what I said in the last paragraph.

You can write what you like (and do... frequently ) just don't pick up and criticise other posters for doing exactly what you do.

You’re missing the point I am not trying to persuade people to think differently or take another course of action, they’ve made their mind up and will stick like glue to it (Brexit is a perfect example). I will argue their opinion is incorrect sometimes politely and reasonably sometimes more mischievously and on occasion rudely. BB has openly said that he wants to change people’s minds therein lies the difference. It’s just a football message board it’s not going to change anything that really matters.

[billybassett]

Here's one for you Deko

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationa...tember2020

You think you're saving lives banging the everyone must be saved at all costs drum. You're probably actually killing more of them just slowly

---

Also extending my post re the army tests yesterday the govt has published:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/oxfor...=immediate

220 positive from 44k tests. False positive rate 0.36% positives rate 0.5%

So even though nobody actually responded to the info I put about this yesterday this is again a damning verdict once more in the sense that there are no positives in that batch of tests and the PCR test that is giving 2.5% positives is producing mainly false positives as I've been saying for months.

If the projections of cases and admissions was based on this data rather than what Sage would like with the PCR (so they can sell their tests and make money from a vaccine ) we'd now be living our lives normally and not.killing ourselves slowly.

But to do that of course would mean politicians and sage admitting they are wrong. I'd be better off searching for hens teeth rather than waiting for that.

I expect no response but you should really be writing to your mp about this fraud.

---

Possibly SM - if that's the case it isn't excess deaths and that's what I think Billy is getting confused over. To get a real understanding it has to be like for like.

I'm not confused about what excess deaths are. Seems like I'm the only one on here not confused by the PCR test invalidity though.

So you want to base predictions on cases and admissions on testing asymptomatic people, not people who actually have symptoms or even on real life cases, admissions and ICU occupancy. Nuts

This is such a bizarre reply baggy1. I've never said anything such. Tells me a lot about where your mind is re this testing. The PCR test tests asymptomatic people. It tests literally thousands and thousands of them every day. Unless you're telling me seriously 300,000 people had symptoms yesterday. Obviously not.

I've said for months we shouldn't be testing anyone unless they show symptoms. I've consistently said we should also use a test that is fit for purpose, i.e. thermocycle les than 24 times, use 2 primers, publish the false positive rate (like they do on every other test - even the army one now is published so why not the PCR test FFS) and if a positive returns test then do a second test to confirm. That's called proper lab testing.

If, and only if, on that basis we had thousands of actual cases every day then yes I'd be worried. But we don't and the Liverpool army test goes to prove how wrong that PCR test is.

We've been living since June in a "casedemic" not an epidemic. I'd have thought the penny may have dropped for many but seemingly not, they can't get past "cases" as portrayed on BBC. I found it a little sinister in June that once the deaths chart wasn't a compelling graph all the MSM moved to a cases chart that had a nice rising curve.

Hospital admissions aren't stretched for this time of year (other than for the reason 1000s of nurses and doctors are being told to self isolate even though they are perfectly fine - all based on the PCR test again), excess deaths are in line for this time of year - but yes lets see how they get on as per my previous post with the graphs that's been ignored, lockdowns don't work and masks are a waste of time.

I'm surprised baggy1 that you slurr me for no reason but make no attempt to counter the army testing numbers.

Apart from the obvious fact that it isn't me that you have quoted there or slurred you I will attempt to answer the points with my views.

I've never once referred in all of the posts with a view on testing apart from early days saying it is pointless comparing testing data as it is inconsistent. It is also pointless taking about tests when you don't know how many individuals have been tested.

Testing people only with symptoms seems counterproductive when the general belief is that the disease can be spread by asymptomatic people. Testing en masse means that you can identify who has got it, even asymptomatic, and ask them to isolate and therefore reduce the spread until they have completed a two week period. That seems sensible to me.

I've no opinion on the testing and the success rate because I haven't looked at it, that is why I haven't made any opinions on it.

June is the summer and it wasn't spreading as much because we were outdoors and schools / unis were off. Those things have reversed now and we are seeing an increase in hospitalisations, who would have thought, eh? Again I've avoided talking about cases because it's a meaningless point unless you have 100% of the population tested - you keep asking me for an opinion on that, I've never talked about cases - see testing above.

You talk about hospital beds as if the whole hospital is one big dormitory and doctors / nurses as one big homogenous pot - there are 5900 ICU / CCU beds in England, there are a very limited number of critical care doctors and nurses as well. Covid treatment involves ICU / CCU mainly, when that starts spilling over into other areas then we have problems. Hospitalisations are increasing but happily seem to be slowing down, I'll update later when I get yesterday's figures in but it's looking positive. That is probably down to the higher tier lockdowns that occurred a few weeks ago in the north that has helped reduce the spread. We are over 2/3rds of the way to the maximum amount for April / May and it was heading to go well past it until measures were put in place - I've shown the figures consistently for the past few weeks.

Your graphs are at best misleading and if i'm honest basically shite - you don't understand the data behind them (comparing winter deaths with spring summer deaths is not excess deaths) and you put them out as if they are fact. 

So no I didn't slur you and you have got that carried away with proving your 'facts' that you think that I did somehow. I've kept to two simple facts throughout - excess deaths and hospitalisations. They are good indicators for this real threat that is happening and, I think, useful for people on here. As for tests and cases, you've got me mixed up with someone else as I've never bothered with them as they are pointless stats IMO.

I think this whole statement and especially about testing and the bold bit makes me question you're entire argument and motives. I'd go as far to say that you've been taken in if you've not even looked at it after 8 mths. I find that staggering.

The argument it didn't spread in summer is facile if you know anything about respiratory viruses or understand anything about how it transmits. Not to mention the fact that if we are going to even entertain that it's because of the outdoors and unis being off that doesn't make sense on so many levels of other congregations that happen as to be moot.

The ICU beds are a homogenous pot in regions. That's why there's not hundreds in every hospital. Hospitals got busy not because of admissions but because of isolating staff.

As for my graphs they are produced from the same data you use. They show a picture of fact. Not all of it. Call them shite but that's like posting excess deaths figures every week and calling them all covid. They are not. Nor were they in the Spring. Nor will they be next week.

The big thing about ALL the graphs though is that they all showed a flattening and a reduction PRIOR to any decision on lockdown2. That's what Whitty, Van Tam and Vallance used 3 week old data. But if you've not worked out what that shower of SAGE shit is about then god help you.

The fact you won't entertain a conversation about the testing regime or that we should be treating symptoms not cases is telling.

And one last time for the record lockdowns do not work, 30 years of WHO research with an updated paper in Oct 2019 said they had no lasting efficacy, nor masks not test and trace. But if you know better than them then you must be Chinese because that's all the world has done - follow them into the abyss.

But thankfully I've now got to the nub of your delusion and I either you're just winding me up or you actually believe what you're being spoonfed.

[baggy1]

So you want to base predictions on cases and admissions on testing asymptomatic people, not people who actually have symptoms or even on real life cases, admissions and ICU occupancy. Nuts

I'm surprised baggy1 that you slurr me for no reason but make no attempt to counter the army testing numbers.

Apart from the obvious fact that it isn't me that you have quoted there or slurred you I will attempt to answer the points with my views.

I've never once referred in all of the posts with a view on testing apart from early days saying it is pointless comparing testing data as it is inconsistent. It is also pointless taking about tests when you don't know how many individuals have been tested.

Testing people only with symptoms seems counterproductive when the general belief is that the disease can be spread by asymptomatic people. Testing en masse means that you can identify who has got it, even asymptomatic, and ask them to isolate and therefore reduce the spread until they have completed a two week period. That seems sensible to me.

I've no opinion on the testing and the success rate because I haven't looked at it, that is why I haven't made any opinions on it.

June is the summer and it wasn't spreading as much because we were outdoors and schools / unis were off. Those things have reversed now and we are seeing an increase in hospitalisations, who would have thought, eh? Again I've avoided talking about cases because it's a meaningless point unless you have 100% of the population tested - you keep asking me for an opinion on that, I've never talked about cases - see testing above.

You talk about hospital beds as if the whole hospital is one big dormitory and doctors / nurses as one big homogenous pot - there are 5900 ICU / CCU beds in England, there are a very limited number of critical care doctors and nurses as well. Covid treatment involves ICU / CCU mainly, when that starts spilling over into other areas then we have problems. Hospitalisations are increasing but happily seem to be slowing down, I'll update later when I get yesterday's figures in but it's looking positive. That is probably down to the higher tier lockdowns that occurred a few weeks ago in the north that has helped reduce the spread. We are over 2/3rds of the way to the maximum amount for April / May and it was heading to go well past it until measures were put in place - I've shown the figures consistently for the past few weeks.

Your graphs are at best misleading and if i'm honest basically shite - you don't understand the data behind them (comparing winter deaths with spring summer deaths is not excess deaths) and you put them out as if they are fact. 

So no I didn't slur you and you have got that carried away with proving your 'facts' that you think that I did somehow. I've kept to two simple facts throughout - excess deaths and hospitalisations. They are good indicators for this real threat that is happening and, I think, useful for people on here. As for tests and cases, you've got me mixed up with someone else as I've never bothered with them as they are pointless stats IMO.

I think this whole statement and especially about testing and the bold bit makes me question you're entire argument and motives. I'd go as far to say that you've been taken in if you've not even looked at it after 8 mths. I find that staggering.

The argument it didn't spread in summer is facile if you know anything about respiratory viruses or understand anything about how it transmits. Not to mention the fact that if we are going to even entertain that it's because of the outdoors and unis being off that doesn't make sense on so many levels of other congregations that happen as to be moot.

The ICU beds are a homogenous pot in regions. That's why there's not hundreds in every hospital. Hospitals got busy not because of admissions but because of isolating staff.

As for my graphs they are produced from the same data you use. They show a picture of fact. Not all of it. Call them shite but that's like posting excess deaths figures every week and calling them all covid. They are not. Nor were they in the Spring. Nor will they be next week.

The big thing about ALL the graphs though is that they all showed a flattening and a reduction PRIOR to any decision on lockdown2. That's what Whitty, Van Tam and Vallance used 3 week old data. But if you've not worked out what that shower of SAGE shit is about then god help you.

The fact you won't entertain a conversation about the testing regime or that we should be treating symptoms not cases is telling.

And one last time for the record lockdowns do not work, 30 years of WHO research with an updated paper in Oct 2019 said they had no lasting efficacy, nor masks not test and trace. But if you know better than them then you must be Chinese because that's all the world has done - follow them into the abyss.

But thankfully I've now got to the nub of your delusion and I either you're just winding me up or you actually believe what you're being spoonfed.

You miss the point massively - I haven't been talking about testing because I've just been putting facts about hospitalisations and excess deaths up. I haven't opined on testing on here because it's pointless.

And at last we are getting to the simple question I keep asking you but you avoid - if the 60+k excess deaths this year are not due to covid, what else has happened to cause this year to have increased deaths. This year blows all other years out of the water with deaths and you still think that it's not all down to covid, you even try to downplay it by saying 2017/18 had 49k excess deaths when in fact it didn't, they are just figures showing the difference between winter and summer - Shock news, more people die in winter.

The lockdown 2 came too late again, cases were rising and are still rising but you just want to let them continue. You are right they are flattening but that is after locking down the north west. And when the test and trace system is so shit its next to useless the only option is to lockdown.

And since you started with accusing me off slurring you (when you were looking at Strawman's post) and then end up by calling me delusional or gullible shows a lot. I've tried not to get into the name calling and asked you many times to take a step back but you keep feeling the need to insult.

You have gone too far into wonderland and can't step back to a moderate position. Look back over the posts and tell me where I haven't been either factual or reasonable to both sides. I can see both sides of the argument and haven't changed my approach all year, something that you thanked me for earlier in the year because at that point it suited your views (excess deaths and hospitalisations were down to normal) but as soon as they start rising and I report that you accuse me of having an agenda. That's fanatical.

[billybassett]

"I haven't opined on testing because it's pointless": It's the only reason we are in this mess at this point in time, it's what all the decisions and actions have been based on since June.

I wasn't using delusional as an insult by the way or gullible. They're just states of being and of mind.

I did thank you you have posted some good stuff and it's made me think. Unlike some posters - Dekka - on this thread.

I do feel fanatical about it: to be "obsessively concerned with something" is what I am because it's a travesty. Not for me or my generation but for those generations making their way in life. They are being robbed blind by witless politicians and bureaucrats and money makers to a background of an average Covid mortality age being higher than the average general mortality age.

If that's not something to be obsessed about then you have me guilty sir. I'm not just fighting in here I'm fighting in all other areas to try and do my bit. Whether through my MP, to the Heath Sec, twitter, work wherever. I won't stop I believe 100% we've been completely duped and we're sucking it up like infants on the breast.

No one ever comes back to me on this so for a final time:

Are the health benefits of the current testing programmes, tracing work, lockdowns, masks, vaccination programmes greater than the overall costs to wider health, education, business, economy etc?