Culture Wars
#91
I mean....yeah, a bit like China? Obviously I'm not in favour of an authoritarian, draconian state but they have dealt with covid much better than the UK has. As has been said, its possible to have a properly funded state with the best interests of it's people in mind without becoming China.
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#92
(07-10-2020, 07:54 AM)baggy1 Wrote:
(07-09-2020, 06:50 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-08-2020, 08:19 AM)baggy1 Wrote: You mean complete lack of leadership and direction from the generals. The Tories have had 10 years to sort this shit out and all they've done is cut services and lined their pockets, a fully funded and working state with strong leadership would have dealt with this

Incompetent leadership giving no guidance to cut to the bone services - yeah that screams state incompetence  Rolleyes

Like China, perhaps?

Of course, in your head there is nothing between full capitalism and full communism. It's funny how you read 'a fully funded and working state' as something that couldn't work alongside the private sector.


I was going to post something along those lines in your defence, but - apologies for this - I just couldn't muster the energy anymore, and anyway you're more than capable of fighting your own corner. Germany has a better funded state sector than the UK; possibly, in part at least, a consequence of setting more realistic rates of corporation tax and then actually collecting the money. This has probably helped them handle the pandemic rather better than has been the case in the UK.
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#93
(07-10-2020, 08:37 AM)Ossian Wrote:
(07-10-2020, 07:54 AM)baggy1 Wrote:
(07-09-2020, 06:50 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-08-2020, 08:19 AM)baggy1 Wrote: You mean complete lack of leadership and direction from the generals. The Tories have had 10 years to sort this shit out and all they've done is cut services and lined their pockets, a fully funded and working state with strong leadership would have dealt with this

Incompetent leadership giving no guidance to cut to the bone services - yeah that screams state incompetence  Rolleyes

Like China, perhaps?

Of course, in your head there is nothing between full capitalism and full communism. It's funny how you read 'a fully funded and working state' as something that couldn't work alongside the private sector.


I was going to post something along those lines in your defence, but - apologies for this - I just couldn't muster the energy anymore, and anyway you're more than capable of fighting your own corner. Germany has a better funded state sector than the UK; possibly, in part at least, a consequence of setting more realistic rates of corporation tax and then actually collecting the money. This has probably helped them handle the pandemic rather better than has been the case in the UK.

Trust me Oss, I know exactly what you mean. I'm not looking for a socialist world to wipe my arse for me. I've worked all of my life, paid into my pension and saved money. I benefitted from having the state pay for my education from the age of 4 up until leaving Uni in my early 20s. I've been looked after by the NHS when I needed it but because I've kept myself healthy I haven't needed it tool much (touch wood). I've got two kids that have both done the same apart from the Uni bit and are now paying taxes and saving for their future.

I want to see the taxes I pay build a safety net for all in this country and to help people get on their feet and then pay back into the system to pass it on. We've been mugged off by this government playing the 'Trump' card of fighting the system when all they want to do is line their pockets at the expense of the very people that voted for them. How anyone can defend them is beyond me, this crisis has shown them up for the con men that they are.
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#94
(07-10-2020, 08:31 AM)ChamonixBaggie Wrote: they have dealt with covid much better than the UK has

How would you know? Oh, it's what the Chinese have told you. Big Grin

(07-10-2020, 07:54 AM)baggy1 Wrote: Of course, in your head there is nothing between full capitalism and full communism. It's funny how you read 'a fully funded and working state' as something that couldn't work alongside the private sector.

Wow, you can read my mind.

I wonder what a "fully funded and working state" looks like? Ossian's already given the laughable example of Germany (crumbling infrastructure AOTS).

You can never possibly achieve a "fully funded" state in a liberal democracy because the big state always demands more. Let me give you an example - my favourite advert this week is for a £44,000 NHS Climate Manager for North Bristol NHS Trust. £44K per annum to fulfill a job description one of my guys fulfills for individual clients at £400 / quarter.
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#95
I can’t remember who alluded to charity should be the answer to funding for disabled hospices and not the state?
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#96
(07-10-2020, 11:15 AM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-10-2020, 07:54 AM)baggy1 Wrote: Of course, in your head there is nothing between full capitalism and full communism. It's funny how you read 'a fully funded and working state' as something that couldn't work alongside the private sector.

Wow, you can read my mind.

I wonder what a "fully funded and working state" looks like? Ossian's already given the laughable example of Germany (crumbling infrastructure AOTS).

You can never possibly achieve a "fully funded" state in a liberal democracy because the big state always demands more. Let me give you an example - my favourite advert this week is for a £44,000 NHS Climate Manager for North Bristol NHS Trust. £44K per annum to fulfill a job description one of my guys fulfills for individual clients at £400 / quarter.

So again you ignore part of the answer (that you even quoted surprisingly this time) where I suggest working alongside the private sector. Looking at the role you mention I would say that what you can offer is a consultation to provide recommendations on what Bristol will need to do to reach their target, the role looks like it will be for someone to run that project to implement the recommendations. Unless you can implement the whole project for £1,600 a year.

Again it really isn't as black and white as you make out, but you seem to be in that mindset where you are right on everything and a little scratch of the surface reveals closer to the truth. Now look, it's Friday, I don't want you getting all upset again and calling me a twat, why don't you just chill your beans and we can agree that the state needs more funding than they get and they can work alongside management companies like yourself who can provide the ideas and experience / best practice
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#97
(07-10-2020, 11:15 AM)Protheroe Wrote: I wonder what a "fully funded and working state" looks like? Ossian's already given the laughable example of Germany (crumbling infrastructure AOTS).

What Ossian actually said was "Germany has a better funded state sector than the UK..."

Nonetheless, feel free to keep replying to what you wish I'd posted.
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#98
(07-10-2020, 03:54 PM)Ossian Wrote:
(07-10-2020, 11:15 AM)Protheroe Wrote: I wonder what a "fully funded and working state" looks like? Ossian's already given the laughable example of Germany (crumbling infrastructure AOTS).

What Ossian actually said was "Germany has a better funded state sector than the UK..."

And I don't agree that it does. Large parts of German infrastructure are falling apart.

(07-10-2020, 01:11 PM)baggy1 Wrote: So again you ignore part of the answer (that you even quoted surprisingly this time) where I suggest working alongside the private sector.

That's because it's gibberish. What is a "fully funded & working state"? Where does it exist? Where does a "fully funded & working state" end and the "private sector" begin. In your answer you ignored the "strong leadership" element too.

A "fully funded state with strong leadership" (whatever that is) sounds pretty totalitarian to me.

And yes, my guy implements projects just like North Bristol's nationwide for £400 / quarter. I reckon we could do the "work" of most NHS Diversity Managers (average salary £51,469) in half an hour an month as well.

(07-10-2020, 12:23 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: I can’t remember who alluded to charity should be the answer to funding for disabled hospices and not the state?

My mother died recently in Marie Curie's excellent hospice in Solihull. Marie Curie is 70% funded from charitable donations, and provides a level of service a world away from the NHS. It's a model for end of life care.
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#99
(07-10-2020, 04:14 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-10-2020, 01:11 PM)baggy1 Wrote: So again you ignore part of the answer (that you even quoted surprisingly this time) where I suggest working alongside the private sector.

That's because it's gibberish. What is a "fully funded & working state"? Where does it exist? Where does a "fully funded & working state" end and the "private sector" begin. In your answer you ignored the "strong leadership" element too.

A "fully funded state with strong leadership" (whatever that is) sounds pretty totalitarian to me.

And yes, my guy implements projects just like North Bristol's nationwide for £400 / quarter. I reckon we could do the "work" of most NHS Diversity Managers (average salary £51,469) in half an hour an month as well.

(07-10-2020, 12:23 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: I can’t remember who alluded to charity should be the answer to funding for disabled hospices and not the state?

My mother died recently in Marie Curie's excellent hospice in Solihull. Marie Curie is 70% funded from charitable donations, and provides a level of service a world away from the NHS. It's a model for end of life care.

Hardly gibberish, funding the state properly wouldn't have left us in the mess we are in. Strong leadership isn't something that is only in totalitarian states.

And whilst Marie Curie is a good model there are plenty of examples, Acorns for one locally, that cannot survive on that model. Maybe they should get some over priced consultants in to tell them how to do it. Or maybe we should have a properly funded state that provides that service using Marie Curie as an example and not having to rely on the generosity of others.

As it happens my wife used to help at Marie Curie in Solihull as a volunteer. I agree they do a great job.
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Quite why some posters feel the need to dissemble, by pretending the choice is limited to Pinochet's junta or Castro's Cuba, with all options in between discounted, is a mystery.

All developed countries have infrastructure which varies from the modern and state of the art to some at the other end of the spectrum which has seen better days. That doesn't alter the fact that some benefit from more sustained planning and investment than others and those are generally, as a result, the ones better equipped to respond when needed. Global pandemics being a case in point.
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