Think I have unearthed Proth

[Fido]

Without going over too much old ground it does feel like the EFTA, single market discussion should have been had before the country was sent to the polls.

I wonder if the 52% would all agree that was the type of Brexit they voted for? If not the majority crumbles and the obvious play is to reverse jt.

It was the wrong type of Brexit and a failure of statecraft. Be told.

And I and many, many others did mention EFTA, single market and cake eating before the polls.

Surely this can't be disputed? You don't go into a souk and when they ask for 1000 dirhams you offer 950 and then try and move away from that number? FWIW an EFTA-style arrangement would have been ideal and exactly what was required in some form (as was the original premise of the EEC) but we had a load of muppets in charge that couldn't get past Barnier's one-man mission to make a name for himself.

[Borin' Baggie]

Without going over too much old ground it does feel like the EFTA, single market discussion should have been had before the country was sent to the polls.

I wonder if the 52% would all agree that was the type of Brexit they voted for? If not the majority crumbles and the obvious play is to reverse jt.

It was the wrong type of Brexit and a failure of statecraft. Be told.

And I and many, many others did mention EFTA, single market and cake eating before the polls.

Surely this can't be disputed? You don't go into a souk and when they ask for 1000 dirhams you offer 950 and then try and move away from that number? FWIW an EFTA-style arrangement would have been ideal and exactly what was required in some form (as was the original premise of the EEC) but we had a load of muppets in charge that couldn't get past Barnier's one-man mission to make a name for himself.

Why are you blaming Barnier when Theresa May unilaterally took it off the table with the "red lines"? What the hell was Barnier supposed to do?

[Fido]

Without going over too much old ground it does feel like the EFTA, single market discussion should have been had before the country was sent to the polls.

I wonder if the 52% would all agree that was the type of Brexit they voted for? If not the majority crumbles and the obvious play is to reverse jt.

It was the wrong type of Brexit and a failure of statecraft. Be told.

And I and many, many others did mention EFTA, single market and cake eating before the polls.

Surely this can't be disputed? You don't go into a souk and when they ask for 1000 dirhams you offer 950 and then try and move away from that number? FWIW an EFTA-style arrangement would have been ideal and exactly what was required in some form (as was the original premise of the EEC) but we had a load of muppets in charge that couldn't get past Barnier's one-man mission to make a name for himself.

Why are you blaming Barnier when Theresa May unilaterally took it off the table with the "red lines"? What the hell was Barnier supposed to do?

I'm blaming both, BB. May scuttled backwards and forwards not really knowing what the end goal should be and Barnier was on a power trip.

[Borin' Baggie]

Without going over too much old ground it does feel like the EFTA, single market discussion should have been had before the country was sent to the polls.

I wonder if the 52% would all agree that was the type of Brexit they voted for? If not the majority crumbles and the obvious play is to reverse jt.

It was the wrong type of Brexit and a failure of statecraft. Be told.

And I and many, many others did mention EFTA, single market and cake eating before the polls.

Surely this can't be disputed? You don't go into a souk and when they ask for 1000 dirhams you offer 950 and then try and move away from that number? FWIW an EFTA-style arrangement would have been ideal and exactly what was required in some form (as was the original premise of the EEC) but we had a load of muppets in charge that couldn't get past Barnier's one-man mission to make a name for himself.

Why are you blaming Barnier when Theresa May unilaterally took it off the table with the "red lines"? What the hell was Barnier supposed to do?

I'm blaming both, BB. May scuttled backwards and forwards not really knowing what the end goal should be and Barnier was on a power trip.

But I don't see how you can possibly blame Barnier for staying in the single market being taken off the table by us, the only external talk about it was the EU not wanting a Swiss-style arrangement with multiple treaties preferring an EEA-style arrangement and some reluctance from EFTA members about letting us in the EFTA for political reasons owing to the size of the UK vs the 4 EFTA member states but that was moot given we locked ourselves out of that option unilaterally.

[baggy1]

Here is the crux of the matter which was predicted by many beforehand. The EU were never going to let us go easily because of the potential domino effect, why it comes as a surprise that they played hardball shows a complete niaivity to the whole leave / remain debate. Which takes us back to the 'we have all the cards' bullshit - a problem that still goes on today with the politicking that goes on daily.

We, as a country, are fucked without stability and we have taken to the football manager approach to Prime Ministers. Our borrowing costs have gone up and at around 10% of all of our expenditure simply because we are deemed a risk internationally. 6 PMs since the Brexit vote (9 years) compared with the 6 before that (39 years) tells you everything you need to know. Stupid decision followed by knee jerk decisions are costing us dearly.

We aren't fucked because of 1 budget that has little room for manouvere, we're fucked by the last 10 years of 'useful idiots' to coin a phrase from one of the latest chicken licken converts.

[Protheroe]

Forgive me for pointing this out, but you're conveniently forgetting the GFC.

It is abundantly clear that the Brexit exit was indeed a monumental failure of statecraft by the UK Parliament. Is that really up for debate?

Is there still anyone seriously arguing that nationalising private debt and suppressing interest rates, wages and growth for 17 years was the right response to the GFC?

Parliament has had two major calls to make in the last two decades. It completely failed on both of them. And if they hadn't failed the first, I doubt the latter would have ever presented itself as an issue.

[baggy1]

Fucks sake mon - Brexit wouldn't have worked if you had a clean road with no objections to exit no matter who was in charge. Taking 20% of your trade and slapping a tarriff and extra paperwork on it and still having to maintain the standards in order to trade was always going to hit business.

And GFC has a clue in the name whereas Brexit was completely self imposed fuckwittery, I genuinely can't believe you still hide behind statecraft - Brexit would only have worked in a perfect vacuum. If you couldn't see that before hand then you are daft. You can't on one hand point towards the idiots at the helm and then on the other expect them to do something.

You like cars - this is the equivalent of knowing you have a shit driver and you want better results so you leave the manufacturers that build the car because you can do better yourself you believe. Then after you've left you realise your garage is a bit shit, and the driver is the same.

You more than most have been right royally conned, so much that you still hang onto the cult long after everyone has been rescued.

[Protheroe]

I'm not blinkered enough to believe that only possible national response to the GFC was to insulate banks and borrowers from the reality of markets. The US regularly lets banks go and has the most dynamic economy in the world. That's not unrelated. You only have to look at how US wage and productivity growth has compared against ours in the period since. Productivity growth was a problem here even before the GFC - it has collapsed since.

Brexit on the other hand remains a modest and manageable issue despite the rage baiting from the continuity-Remainers. The Labour Party is doing a great job of diverting your attention frm the real issues which remain sclerotic productivity (woeful in the public sector), no growth, rising unemployment, embedded inflation and state sponsored attacks on the living standards of working people.

[baggy1]

OK lets look at this simply - the GFC and Brexit have both happened and both contributed to where we are now. Which one of these can we do something about to make it better for us.

[tHEgLASSdOORS]

Which one was globally interconnected and which one was an act of voluntary masochism?