The world has finally gone to hell in a handcart

[John Osborne’s Knuckle]

Well, we can agree on the state of British politics, and the world’s for that matter, and the awful collection of politicians we find ourselves blessed with at present. I have no idea who I would vote for come the next G.E.
I would argue that older generations haven’t been selfish. Can you really believe that parents and grandparents would jeopardise their descendants future purely for their here and now? I believe that most of the mature voters chose as they did because they believed it was the correct coarse to take. It might be worth remembering that they have experience of living in both scenarios to base their views on.
Being more conciliatory and polite may not change the opinions of those in the opposite camp but calling people the ‘C’ word and lording a supposed superior intellect (sorry Dek but that is how it can come across at times) is certainly not going to persuade them to come out of their entrenched positions.
As I intimidated at the start, I understand and genuinely sympathise with your feeling of disenfranchisement but I do feel a little uneasy with the comment “Don’t wish... to accept”.  What is the alternative if not to go with the majority, however slim? Insurrection?

The c word was used because I see austerity measures hurting the most vulnerable in society the most. Cuts were inevitable and necessary to a certain degree but the extent and who and how they were targeted (genuinely disabled for example) when the government can find £1bn to prop itself up via the DUP is c-sh behaviour, and those voted for them are complicit in that so I stand by that remark. It won’t change their minds but nothing would, it is an ideological decision and if it’s not, then you have to question the intelligence of those who made the decisions because it’s going to cost us all more in the long term. The mantra at the time was we are all in this together, on reflection who have suffered the most from the cuts?

Regarding the remark not to accept the decision well those who have lobbied for 40yrs to leave never did and wouldn’t have regardless of the result, so if this decision turns out to be a disaster then I will vote for a party that would be pro rejoining.  I could be wrong and it’s all going to be great. I’m sure people will tell the remainers they were wrong in which case I will stfu. However if it becomes clear the majority were wrong what redress do remainers have? All I can see is a future where many of those who voted to leave will be the same people who have been hit hardest by Brexit in which case they will rightly be called masochists for prolonging at a guess austerity for another decade at least!  

Remembering yesteryear is a dangerous way to make decisions as memories are not fact and are tinged with nostalgia. Women’s rights, ethnic minorities, the disabled, gay people etc might not look back so fondly on pre EU Britain.

I don’t believe I have ever spoke down to you, or anyone I respect on here but I will call out people who can’t back up anything they say with a logical argument or resort to wishing me dead, calling all the expletives under the sun, do the leftie snowflake nonsense etc.

Firstly I completely understand your attitude to those that use foul and abusive language directly at you. Something I experienced, together with ageists rants, from that lovely character, Donegal. If anyone does wish death to anyone on here the Mods should banish them to the naughty step for a few days. As I say, the “speaking down to” me is by association.
Anyway, back to the plot.
So, are you saying previous experience counts for nothing? Why do many on here and countless pundits always suggest that football clubs require players /managers ‘who know the league’ they find themselves in?
You complain about a feeling of disenfranchisement with present British politicians but how do you square that with your love of the Politburo run E.U. where the average person on the street has virtually no say through the ballot box?

Poland still has ‘Homosexual Conversion therapy’ The ruling Law and Justice party says the advancement of gay rights is a “grave danger” to family life. When the coalition that ruled for eight years up till 2015 ignored reforms to LGBT rights it was led by Donald Tusk. Remember him? Romania actively discriminates against its native Roma population.

When were women given universal suffrage in the U.K.? Oh, that’s correct, 1928 with some 8 million plus obtaining the vote in 1918. Portugal not until 1968 Belgium in 1948 and the great democracy of France in 1945. The first Equal Pay Act was passed in the U.K. in 1970! Before at least 14 of the other 27 member states.
Abortion has been legal up to 90 days of pregnancy in Italy and later in cases of ‘severe ‘ abnormalities since 1979 but it is almost impossible to get one. Trainee doctors aren’t even given any tutoring on terminations and GPs are also not educated in contraception. Let’s not forget the recent scandal of the poor women, often victims of rape or familial abuse having to secretly travel to England for treatment from Ireland.

Spain still does not have an independent body to tackle racism. Going on for 50% of Roma and non E.U. migrant children do not complete compulsory education in Spain. Croatia, Hungry, Poland, Serbia and even France do not even have a definition of discrimination in their equality legislation as required by the E.Us. Racial Equality Directive.

Following more Brexit scare predictions (couldn’t be lies because, as we know, only leave supporters resorted to falsehoods) by Dame Grey-Thompson and others about how the U.Ks. Disabled would loose out following Brexit the Papworth Trust, a leading disability charity, says the UK is one of the more progressive of the 28 EU member states when it comes to the treatment of the disabled.
In 1970, the UK passed the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Ac, the first legislation in the world to award rights to disabled people.
From the, E.U. biased, BBCs ‘Fact Checker’ site “E.U. law governs workers' rights, but other areas of social policy are left to the governments of nation states, meaning UK law on disability is by nature more comprehensive than the EU's.”

I think to suggest or infer that The European Union has led the way in enlightenment and that all other Nation Sates were the epitome of liberalism and all sweetness and light in previous eras, compared to Britain, is a little spurious to say the least.

[Babel]

Selection matters JOK. Had you chosen, say, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Belgium, or the Netherlands, your comparison would have looked less favourable. Instead you chose countries whose cultures (in terms of gender and religion) and systems (in terms of the role of the individual) are arguably further away from that of the UK.

[bradesbaggie]

Why aren't Jacob Mogg and the rest of the fanboys demanding to know the politics of the photographer?

[Derek Hardballs]

Well, we can agree on the state of British politics, and the world’s for that matter, and the awful collection of politicians we find ourselves blessed with at present. I have no idea who I would vote for come the next G.E.
I would argue that older generations haven’t been selfish. Can you really believe that parents and grandparents would jeopardise their descendants future purely for their here and now? I believe that most of the mature voters chose as they did because they believed it was the correct coarse to take. It might be worth remembering that they have experience of living in both scenarios to base their views on.
Being more conciliatory and polite may not change the opinions of those in the opposite camp but calling people the ‘C’ word and lording a supposed superior intellect (sorry Dek but that is how it can come across at times) is certainly not going to persuade them to come out of their entrenched positions.
As I intimidated at the start, I understand and genuinely sympathise with your feeling of disenfranchisement but I do feel a little uneasy with the comment “Don’t wish... to accept”.  What is the alternative if not to go with the majority, however slim? Insurrection?

The c word was used because I see austerity measures hurting the most vulnerable in society the most. Cuts were inevitable and necessary to a certain degree but the extent and who and how they were targeted (genuinely disabled for example) when the government can find £1bn to prop itself up via the DUP is c-sh behaviour, and those voted for them are complicit in that so I stand by that remark. It won’t change their minds but nothing would, it is an ideological decision and if it’s not, then you have to question the intelligence of those who made the decisions because it’s going to cost us all more in the long term. The mantra at the time was we are all in this together, on reflection who have suffered the most from the cuts?

Regarding the remark not to accept the decision well those who have lobbied for 40yrs to leave never did and wouldn’t have regardless of the result, so if this decision turns out to be a disaster then I will vote for a party that would be pro rejoining.  I could be wrong and it’s all going to be great. I’m sure people will tell the remainers they were wrong in which case I will stfu. However if it becomes clear the majority were wrong what redress do remainers have? All I can see is a future where many of those who voted to leave will be the same people who have been hit hardest by Brexit in which case they will rightly be called masochists for prolonging at a guess austerity for another decade at least!  

Remembering yesteryear is a dangerous way to make decisions as memories are not fact and are tinged with nostalgia. Women’s rights, ethnic minorities, the disabled, gay people etc might not look back so fondly on pre EU Britain.

I don’t believe I have ever spoke down to you, or anyone I respect on here but I will call out people who can’t back up anything they say with a logical argument or resort to wishing me dead, calling all the expletives under the sun, do the leftie snowflake nonsense etc.

Firstly I completely understand your attitude to those that use foul and abusive language directly at you. Something I experienced, together with ageists rants, from that lovely character, Donegal. If anyone does wish death to anyone on here the Mods should banish them to the naughty step for a few days. As I say, the “speaking down to” me is by association.
Anyway, back to the plot.
So, are you saying previous experience counts for nothing? Why do many on here and countless pundits always suggest that football clubs require players /managers ‘who know the league’ they find themselves in?
You complain about a feeling of disenfranchisement with present British politicians but how do you square that with your love of the Politburo run E.U. where the average person on the street has virtually no say through the ballot box?

Poland still has ‘Homosexual Conversion therapy’ The ruling Law and Justice party says the advancement of gay rights is a “grave danger” to family life. When the coalition that ruled for eight years up till 2015 ignored reforms to LGBT rights it was led by Donald Tusk. Remember him? Romania actively discriminates against its native Roma population.

When were women given universal suffrage in the U.K.? Oh, that’s correct, 1928 with some 8 million plus obtaining the vote in 1918. Portugal not until 1968 Belgium in 1948 and the great democracy of France in 1945. The first Equal Pay Act was passed in the U.K. in 1970! Before at least 14 of the other 27 member states.
Abortion has been legal up to 90 days of pregnancy in Italy and later in cases of ‘severe ‘ abnormalities since 1979 but it is almost impossible to get one. Trainee doctors aren’t even given any tutoring on terminations and GPs are also not educated in contraception. Let’s not forget the recent scandal of the poor women, often victims of rape or familial abuse having to secretly travel to England for treatment from Ireland.

Spain still does not have an independent body to tackle racism. Going on for 50% of Roma and non E.U. migrant children do not complete compulsory education in Spain. Croatia, Hungry, Poland, Serbia and even France do not even have a definition of discrimination in their equality legislation as required by the E.Us. Racial Equality Directive.

Following more Brexit scare predictions (couldn’t be lies because, as we know, only leave supporters resorted to falsehoods) by Dame Grey-Thompson and others about how the U.Ks. Disabled would loose out following Brexit the Papworth Trust, a leading disability charity, says the UK is one of the more progressive of the 28 EU member states when it comes to the treatment of the disabled.
In 1970, the UK passed the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Ac, the first legislation in the world to award rights to disabled people.
From the, E.U. biased, BBCs ‘Fact Checker’ site “E.U. law governs workers' rights, but other areas of social policy are left to the governments of nation states, meaning UK law on disability is by nature more comprehensive than the EU's.”

I think to suggest or infer that The European Union has led the way in enlightenment and that all other Nation Sates were the epitome of liberalism and all sweetness and light in previous eras, compared to Britain, is a little spurious to say the least.

I never said or implied it was the EU that had made it possible for those civil liberties, I was pointing out that nostalgically looking back at pre-EU Britain as a reason / model to wish to go back to isn’t particularly appealing to many. It also proves the point that the EU are not stopping us making our own decisions. 

I don’t like the E.U. as a political body, it clearly has faults but any decision that will potentially make my family worse off I’m against. My son is ten he’s not known school life without austerity measures and yet I’m being told for the greater good he might have to accept more financial upheaval for the sake of Brexit. Fuck that! Why should he? He didn’t cause the financial crash and he didn’t vote for Brexit! 

If you’re comfortable with what is happening, why? What is going to be so much better under a Boris (ffs) Tory government? What his plan?

How about those that did vote for Brexit pay the potential extra on their goods and services? If it proves a costly folly they can subsidise those that didn’t? A kind of Brexit tax / charitable scheme if they believe in the decision so fervently. Say £1000 per person per year for a decade? ;)

[John Osborne’s Knuckle]

Selection matters JOK. Had you chosen, say, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Belgium, or the Netherlands, your comparison would have looked less favourable.  Instead you chose countries whose cultures (in terms of gender and religion) and systems (in terms of the role of the individual) are arguably further away from that of the UK.

I think you are missing the point somewhat. I was pointing out that the groups listed by Dek would not “look back fondly” anywhere pre 1973. Despite his denial I still read Dekka’s  line as an endorsement of the E.U.s lead on enlightened legislation and pointed out that Britain was a more enlightened place than most, relatively speaking. Just because we may no longer be in the Union, and that’s still a big doubt, doesn’t mean those groups will see a reversal of the progress made in their rights. Why would it? Do you believe in the lie that half the population in the U.K. is racist, homophobic, misogynistic, narrow minded bigots. And those across the channel or should I say, Le Manche, are all all welcoming humanists?
Two points about the selections. As the line referred to a previous era, do you really want to mention Germany favourably against the U.K.? It’s record on all those groups was not, shall we say, spotless. As for the modern examples surely this makes the lie that the E.U. is a Utopia for minorities. 
It is not a question of looking back fondly to “yesteryear “ but could pro Brexit supporters but looking forward with more confidence in our abilities.

[Tom Joad]

Selection matters JOK. Had you chosen, say, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Belgium, or the Netherlands, your comparison would have looked less favourable.  Instead you chose countries whose cultures (in terms of gender and religion) and systems (in terms of the role of the individual) are arguably further away from that of the UK.

I think you are missing the point somewhat. I was pointing out that the groups listed by Dek would not “look back fondly” anywhere pre 1973. Despite his denial I still read Dekka’s  line as an endorsement of the E.U.s lead on enlightened legislation and pointed out that Britain was a more enlightened place than most, relatively speaking. Just because we may no longer be in the Union, and that’s still a big doubt, doesn’t mean those groups will see a reversal of the progress made in their rights. Why would it? Do you believe in the lie that half the population in the U.K. is racist, homophobic, misogynistic, narrow minded bigots. And those across the channel or should I say, Le Manche, are all all welcoming humanists?
Two points about the selections. As the line referred to a previous era, do you really want to mention Germany favourably against the U.K.? It’s record on all those groups was not, shall we say, spotless. As for the modern examples surely this makes the lie that the E.U. is a Utopia for minorities. 
It is not a question of looking back fondly to “yesteryear “ but could pro Brexit supporters but looking forward with more confidence in our abilities.

Both excellent posts in a perfectly rational difference of opinions - (as is DHs' post). Most articles online, or in the papers, appear to come from the pre determined opinion of the author. Likewise most debate on Brexit.   Just as, historically, getting out of the EU was the policy of the left, Tony Benn, Dennis Skinner, and Corbyn- would you believe?  Now it is the expanding outer fringes of both parties, although I'm guessing many toe the party line to keep their positions intact. The fact is, this is the first time many politicians have had to actually do something and the real problem is the absolute paucity in the quality and integrity of them. Cameron wasn't an idiot for calling the referendum, he was displaying his own self interest in retaining power. That it backfired is just a further example of how out of touch he was. (Along with most politicians, I will add).
Realistically, it is hard to argue that the UK has ever harvested the true benefits of membership that the rest of the EU has. I go to European cities, and not just their capitals, and am always impressed by public transport. Other countries have lowered pension age and improved workers rights.  Britain, for it's own reasons, have done none of this. Arguably, they have made things worse. We focused on London, on finance, on an endless supply of cheaper labour for our services, and on cheaper imported goods. Our society is stretched every which way, divided,  with a huge disparity of incomes, living standards, health.
Then, with all this mess we belatedly have to factor in environmental concerns. Long, long overdue.
The point I am labouring over is we have dishonest politicians and a disenfranchised public. We have Remainers sorting out Brexit and Leavers heckling destructively from the sidelines. I'm struggling to see any positive way through without damaging democracy.  Actually, IMO, whatever problems are created short term by Brexit, will eventually be overcome as trade and business leaders drive industry, and not our ineffective politicians. Austerity or Spend, Spend, Spend, neither have been any lasting solution. What we need from this is politicians that encourage long term plans, forward thinking, not short term-ism. An end to hailing charlatons from venture capitalism as "investors". An end to serial bankrupts being feted as entrepreneurs. The public weren't fooled, they were just too lazy to care. We are now reaching a stage when far more people are beginning to care. Which way it goes is hard to predict, but with environmentalists coming into the equation, we may at last see an end to the two party comfort zone that has sleepwalked us all into trouble.

[Derek Hardballs]

Selection matters JOK. Had you chosen, say, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Belgium, or the Netherlands, your comparison would have looked less favourable.  Instead you chose countries whose cultures (in terms of gender and religion) and systems (in terms of the role of the individual) are arguably further away from that of the UK.

I think you are missing the point somewhat. I was pointing out that the groups listed by Dek would not “look back fondly” anywhere pre 1973. Despite his denial I still read Dekka’s  line as an endorsement of the E.U.s lead on enlightened legislation and pointed out that Britain was a more enlightened place than most, relatively speaking. Just because we may no longer be in the Union, and that’s still a big doubt, doesn’t mean those groups will see a reversal of the progress made in their rights. Why would it? Do you believe in the lie that half the population in the U.K. is racist, homophobic, misogynistic, narrow minded bigots. And those across the channel or should I say, Le Manche, are all all welcoming humanists?
Two points about the selections. As the line referred to a previous era, do you really want to mention Germany favourably against the U.K.? It’s record on all those groups was not, shall we say, spotless. As for the modern examples surely this makes the lie that the E.U. is a Utopia for minorities. 
It is not a question of looking back fondly to “yesteryear “ but could pro Brexit supporters but looking forward with more confidence in our abilities.

My point was you suggested many older people voted to leave because they remember I assume better times before the E.U. I said I doubt the groups I mentioned would prefer to go back to 1973. The point about us being more progressive in the way we treat people than others predating the EU illustrates that the EU hasn’t hindered or meddled to the detriment progress on this. Do I think a post Brexit Independant UK under a Boris Johnson with the likes of Mogg, Jenkins pulling the strings in the background would further the rights and support those groups received without EU law? Of course I don’t they couldn’t careless about those groups unless it makes them look good fleetingly. 

On the broader point of Brexit and the stereotypes that accompany leavers, let’s not pretend those accusations aren’t without merit. 

Hate crime went up against against foreign nationals as soon as the result was announced. Coincidence? Lefty conspiracy? Or the fact the decision gave licence to many racist bigots the opportunity to think they can say and do exactly what they want? 

Statistics showed that the older generations voted for Brexit

Less educated voted to leave according to research done at the time

I’m summary not all of those who voted Brexit were xenophobic, or less educated but a sizeable proportion were and that is the humongous elephant in the room no one on the Brexit side of the argument wants to admit. 

I know that it’s now the done thing to frame the argument for Brexit as about sovereignty and democracy but it was driven by an anti-immigration rhetoric for years before the referendum was called. It’s a lie to pretend otherwise.

[John Osborne’s Knuckle]

  

I never said or implied it was the EU that had made it possible for those civil liberties, I was pointing out that nostalgically looking back at pre-EU Britain as a reason / model to wish to go back to isn’t particularly appealing to many. It also proves the point that the EU are not stopping us making our own decisions. 

I don’t like the E.U. as a political body, it clearly has faults but any decision that will potentially make my family worse off I’m against. My son is ten he’s not known school life without austerity measures and yet I’m being told for the greater good he might have to accept more financial upheaval for the sake of Brexit. Fuck that! Why should he? He didn’t cause the financial crash and he didn’t vote for Brexit! 

If you’re comfortable with what is happening, why? What is going to be so much better under a Boris (ffs) Tory government? What his plan?

How about those that did vote for Brexit pay the potential extra on their goods and services? If it proves a costly folly they can subsidise those that didn’t? A kind of Brexit tax / charitable scheme if they believe in the decision so fervently. Say £1000 per person per year for a decade?

Re your call for a “Brexit supporter’s tax”. Can my financial controller have a refund of the, at least, £170 tax payed on sanitary products over her time as an EU citizen? Can I have a refund for the extra I have paid for Bananas, sugar, rice or NZ lamb, which is 18% more expensive here than in The USA, due to EU tariffs?
Whilst we’re on, let’s not forget the unfair burden and restrictions these tariffs are putting on the developing world’s agricultural sectors.
Just as an aside, 80% of tariffs collected by the U.K. on goods from outside the EU are sent directly to Brussels. We keep the balance for administration.
Then we have the CAP. In the UK, because of EU policies, beef costs 35% more, turkey 22%, lamb 11%, wheat 15%, chicken 22%, and potatoes 10% - each of-those costs hitting every family in Britain. Particularly the hard up, disadvantage groups whose lot you regularly berate the U.K. government for.
Can I have my share of the €640mil spent since 2015 buying up surplus milk powder to prop up dairy prices? Have we forgotten the butter ‘mountains’ and wine ‘lakes’ which have started to reappear, on the quiet, to maintain higher prices.

We aught or remember too the environmental damage done in the name of the CAP., the loss of habitats, soil erosion and the rape of water courses which left flows to a trickle further downstream. Only now are they thinking of putting in some sort of environmental ‘green’ component into the farmers, no questions asked, Direct Payment to make them act in a little more eco friendly way.

Can I have a refund of the £35 pound per year of my tax that was sent to the EU over the last forty years and yes that does take into account the rebate we’ve had since Maggie.
I think, by my calculations, I am quids in credit and would be due a tax refund. 

As for your son not voting for Brexit. I didn’t vote for the implementation of VAT but I have to put up with it. Come to think of it, I have never voted for any of the presidents of the EU Council or the presidents of the EU commission either. No electorate did! My daughter didn’t have a vote for Tunna Blair’s government but has ended up with a £36,000 university debt. We all have to live with the consequences of other’s political actions.

As we have discussed before, “less educated “ doesn’t necessarily mean less intelligent. Could you have a better education than Boris? Yet I get the impression you do not credit him with too much intelligence. The vast majority of those on both front benches in the HoC are well educated but I wouldn’t trust any of them to “Sit the right way on a lavatory”, to quote Monty Python. Through accident of birth and the ‘station’ in life some found themselves, they were unable to obtain good or higher education, I didn’t get my first degree until my early 50s when I could afford it, doesn’t mean they don’t have the power to reason, understand current affairs and make informed choices.
The vast majority of traditional Labour voters are “less educated “ would you say they have been wrong to vote as they have /do? Actually I could be arguing against myself there when I think back. From the Wilson government devaluing the pound to the deregulating, war mongering Blair government, the legacy of which we are still suffering from today.
Again you use the term “looking back”, and “a wish to go back” it could just be that the majority were looking forward with a wish to move forward.
Your sweeping generalisation view of the more mature as being selfish, dementia addled and intellectually challenged, all reminiscing and longing for the days of the Raj and rickets is simply wrong.

[Derek Hardballs]

Bottom line...

Will leaving the E.U. without a deal (unless you believe Boris has a plan) be good for the UK economically? I think it will directly effect many of those who voted to leave on many spurious reasons.

Will we still be in the same position afterwards because we need a trade deal with the E.U.? I think we will and what bargaining power will we have then? 

What real benefits will the average person in the street see in the short term? 

Why does leaving take back control? Won’t it just mean we have to bend over and take it from the likes of the US and China? You can’t seriously think we will have a strong hand to play that doesn’t involve exploiting our own workforce? 

How is a Brexit negotiation led by Boris Johnson and manoeuvred behind the scenes by Mogg and Jenkins etc anti-establishment / elitism? 

Whichever way you want to frame this mess it still looks a mess and the mess was created to appease factions in the Tory Party. Or even shorter bollocks instigated by tnucs!