(07-20-2021, 10:08 AM)Brentbaggie Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 10:02 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 09:57 AM)Ted Maul Wrote: [ -> ]There's a distinct difference between those who medically cannot have the vaccine or don't take to it and those that wont take it as they believe it'll hook them up to Bill Gates' 5G.
The former should not suffer because of the latter and neither should the vast majority who have spent the last 16 months adhering to the rules and getting their jabs when available.
And this is part of the trick people have fallen for. The percentage of people who believe there’s chips and 5G in vaccines is tiny. Minuscule. But people who have genuine concerns have been thrown in with them! It’s nonsense and it’s created a divide and rule situation. The vast majority of those who don’t want this vaccine are not anti vax! They’ve had loads of vaccines but have concerns on this. But as usual these days, they’ve been thrown in with the extremes. It’s nonsense.
They can certainly at the moment have their right to refuse the vaccine. What about airlines, bus & train companies and foreign countries' rights to refuse the unvaccinated access to travel? Are they acting unfairly, illegally or part of a conspiracy? Should those airlines and transport companies not have the right to refuse travel? What is your suggested solution to this problem?
Airlines in the main are happy to allow negative tests as an alternative. This is completely reasonable.
In addition, holidays aren’t exactly a necessity. Now I know nightclubs aren’t either. But it’s not going to end with nightclubs. It’s not going to end with this covid vaccine. We literally don’t even know how long these vaccines work for. You can still pass on covid if vaccinated. There’s so many scientific holes in this it’s ridiculous, let alone the moral ones of personal choice.
(07-20-2021, 10:11 AM)Protheroe Wrote: [ -> ] (07-19-2021, 04:26 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote: [ -> ]Happy Freedom Day! Vaccine Passports for all!
I was wrong about this. After all the denials that it would happen here's another knee-jerk response.
I'm pro vaccine, I've had 2 shots of the AZ meths in my left arm. I'm also pro choice and pro privacy. It's simply none of my business what any of you choose to do, nor is it the State's business.
I'd hope that businesses will simply resist and ignore this edict and it's likely extension to cinemas, football grounds, concerts and anywhere else the whim may take the government.
I am also glad that at least one political leader has come out against them.
Totally agree with all that.
(07-20-2021, 10:00 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: [ -> ]No! There are many including children under 12 who are specifically but not exclusively vulnerable to Covid. The chance that they would die from a cold or flu for example are significantly smaller than if they caught Covid. Your tough-titty argument can easily be reversed for those perfectly fit and healthy people who can but refuse to have the vaccine, or the passport. You are simply putting the rights of the fittest ahead of the weakest in society. If you're comfortable with this and think rights always trump responsibilities then fair enough but I'm never going to agree or respect that decision. If I'm mistaken then I will apologise in advance.
The argument about 'Fear' is real for many families who could lose a child to Covid and to not even try and see it from their perspective is quire a slap in the face. Passports wouldn't even be on the agenda if people simply had the vaccine in sufficient numbers. We want our rights but we abdicate all responsibility to the rest of society!
You're not going to convince the anti-vax nutters by excluding them from society, you're just going to entrench their views by making them feel like outcasts and they have too few braincells for them to change their minds. If you want to incentivise those who can be won over as they're worried about what benefit the vaccine gives them or they're just too lazy to book a vaccine entice them by giving them a £100 or something, not like that will be an issue given how much taxpayers money this government is happy to spaff up the wall.
You've also got to factor in how this will affect people who can't become eligible either via their underlying health conditions (should they be banned from having fun as well?) or by virtue of their age (if I'm 17 and I've been banned from doing anything fun for 18 months and then I turn 18, book my first vaccine and still can't do anything fun for 8 weeks or 9 weeks due to something outside of my control I would be livid).
(07-20-2021, 10:17 AM)Borin' Baggie Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 10:00 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: [ -> ]No! There are many including children under 12 who are specifically but not exclusively vulnerable to Covid. The chance that they would die from a cold or flu for example are significantly smaller than if they caught Covid. Your tough-titty argument can easily be reversed for those perfectly fit and healthy people who can but refuse to have the vaccine, or the passport. You are simply putting the rights of the fittest ahead of the weakest in society. If you're comfortable with this and think rights always trump responsibilities then fair enough but I'm never going to agree or respect that decision. If I'm mistaken then I will apologise in advance.
The argument about 'Fear' is real for many families who could lose a child to Covid and to not even try and see it from their perspective is quire a slap in the face. Passports wouldn't even be on the agenda if people simply had the vaccine in sufficient numbers. We want our rights but we abdicate all responsibility to the rest of society!
You're not going to convince the anti-vax nutters by excluding them from society, you're just going to entrench their views by making them feel like outcasts and they have too few braincells for them to change their minds. If you want to incentivise those who can be won over as they're worried about what benefit the vaccine gives them or they're just too lazy to book a vaccine entice them by giving them a £100 or something, not like that will be an issue given how much taxpayers money this government is happy to spaff up the wall.
You've also got to factor in how this will affect people who can't become eligible either via their underlying health conditions (should they be banned from having fun as well?) or by virtue of their age (if I'm 17 and I've been banned from doing anything fun for 18 months and then I turn 18, book my first vaccine and still can't do anything fun for 8 weeks or 9 weeks due to something outside of my control I would be livid).
Correct. And most of those who haven’t had the vaccine are not anti vax nutters. Throwing the hesitant in with the nutters is not persuasive either.
I also wonder why the government (and Sage) have kept moving goalposts. First the vulnerable needed the vaccine, then adults, now children? The take up has been higher than initially expected by a good way, but that’s still not enough? If the nhs can’t cope with 90% vaccinated, we need to sort the nhs!
(07-20-2021, 10:02 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 09:57 AM)Ted Maul Wrote: [ -> ]There's a distinct difference between those who medically cannot have the vaccine or don't take to it and those that wont take it as they believe it'll hook them up to Bill Gates' 5G.
The former should not suffer because of the latter and neither should the vast majority who have spent the last 16 months adhering to the rules and getting their jabs when available.
And this is part of the trick people have fallen for. The percentage of people who believe there’s chips and 5G in vaccines is tiny. Minuscule. But people who have genuine concerns have been thrown in with them! It’s nonsense and it’s created a divide and rule situation. The vast majority of those who don’t want this vaccine are not anti vax! They’ve had loads of vaccines but have concerns on this. But as usual these days, they’ve been thrown in with the extremes. It’s nonsense.
Society will be improved if those who are stupid enough to believe the conspiracy theories have restricted freedoms.
(07-20-2021, 10:02 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 09:57 AM)Ted Maul Wrote: [ -> ]There's a distinct difference between those who medically cannot have the vaccine or don't take to it and those that wont take it as they believe it'll hook them up to Bill Gates' 5G.
The former should not suffer because of the latter and neither should the vast majority who have spent the last 16 months adhering to the rules and getting their jabs when available.
And this is part of the trick people have fallen for. The percentage of people who believe there’s chips and 5G in vaccines is tiny. Minuscule. But people who have genuine concerns have been thrown in with them! It’s nonsense and it’s created a divide and rule situation. The vast majority of those who don’t want this vaccine are not anti vax! They’ve had loads of vaccines but have concerns on this. But as usual these days, they’ve been thrown in with the extremes. It’s nonsense.
(07-20-2021, 10:00 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 09:41 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 08:01 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 07:43 AM)baggy1 Wrote: [ -> ]That is the crux of the matter bb, there are many people out there that can't have the vaccine but they are being put in a position because we have a situation where there aren't enough people that have been vaccinated (we can see that by hospital numbers going up). So effectively by people choosing not to have a jab (and as you say that is their choice) they are restricting the rights of those that can't have it.
I wouldn’t bother B1, I’ve been saying this for a year. It’s not difficult to comprehend but those who refuse the vaccine simply dismiss the vulnerable’s rights as not as important as their rights to do what the beep they like. It’s the height of selfishness and a mark of petulant child / man-baby.
BB will not say as much but his ott defence of those who won’t vaccinate does mean he favours their rights above those without a choice. It defies logic to argue against this conclusion.
People who want the vaccine can have it, as most of us have. If anyone vaccinated is still scared to ‘mix’ with others, they’re the bloody man babies. Absolutely ridiculous. Are they never going to go shopping again? Ask everyone in the milk aisle for their proof? Many of us have relatives who have died of influenza. They never demanded everyone got the influenza vax! They got it to reduce their chances of dying. Infectious disease is a risk and that’s life.
You keep saying dismissing the right of the vulnerable as less important as their rights. Well you’re doing simply the other way round. Saying the vulnerable rights are more important than peoples choice over their body. That’s just as selfish.
This is about way more than covid. This is about medical autonomy. Is anyone really naive enough to think it’ll stop there? Really? A person may be happy to mandate or coerce this vaccine, but are you happy for the government to pick and choose your future vaccines as they wish taking away your choice? I’m not.
We don’t even know how long the vaccine lasts for!
I know they’re rare but no one seems to care about bad adverse reactions. Some say they’d be exempt, but it’s too late once some have found out they have a bad reaction!
This is insanity, but it seems to me 18 months of covid has got people living their life thinking of pretty much nothing else. Basically structuring the world around covid. Fear is very very powerful. I’m out.
(07-20-2021, 09:33 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 09:28 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote: [ -> ]The vaccines that you need for certain jobs are just that… for certain jobs. They have also been around years and years. This will be nightclubs to start. Then pubs. Then restaurants. Then shops? And will it really end at the covid vaccine? Really? You must do this to update your passport to get in. Jesus.
This is about medical autonomy in the whole sense, not just covid.
12 months ago this was literally a conspiracy theory on social media. Literally. I laughed and said it would never happen.
Again you are simply condemning the most vulnerable to a life locked in their house if you do not try and encourage people to have the vaccine. What's the alternative for those people currently? You always ask me for solutions, what's yours for making the lives of the most vulnerable as normal possible? Rights should always come with responsibilities.
No! The vulnerable can have the vaccine! The vulnerable have always been vulnerable to infectious disease. It’s unfortunate but it’s a fact of life. That’s infectious disease for you. With them vaccinated, their chances of death are greatly reduced. With a 90% take up, their chances of illness are greatly reduced. With 100% take up they can still get covid!
You are simply handing medical control over to the government. Not for me. This is about more than covid.
No! There are many including children under 12 who are specifically but not exclusively vulnerable to Covid. The chance that they would die from a cold or flu for example are significantly smaller than if they caught Covid. Your tough-titty argument can easily be reversed for those perfectly fit and healthy people who can but refuse to have the vaccine, or the passport. You are simply putting the rights of the fittest ahead of the weakest in society. If you're comfortable with this and think rights always trump responsibilities then fair enough but I'm never going to agree or respect that decision. If I'm mistaken then I will apologise in advance.
And you’re putting the vulnerable rights ahead of the entire populations medical autonomy. You think it starts and ends with covid? No chance! Medical autonomy is massive, and I will never agree with you on this. I will not hand over my medical choices to the government. You must be insane to, but each to their own. Just watch out for the next thing the government insists you do in order for “the greater good”. History says it’s an old trick in the book for authoritarianism. You put your trust in governments if you want. I’m not.
Yes I am because they are vulnerable and I will try my best to fight for their rights because frankly whilst empty vessels shout loudly about freedoms their voices have been sidelined, forgotten or not cared about since shielding stopped. Someone having to prove they have been vaccinated to go to a club doesn't score that highly on the chart of hardships for me. This medical autonomy phrase is just a meaningless slogan.
(07-20-2021, 10:23 AM)Ted Maul Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 10:02 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 09:57 AM)Ted Maul Wrote: [ -> ]There's a distinct difference between those who medically cannot have the vaccine or don't take to it and those that wont take it as they believe it'll hook them up to Bill Gates' 5G.
The former should not suffer because of the latter and neither should the vast majority who have spent the last 16 months adhering to the rules and getting their jabs when available.
And this is part of the trick people have fallen for. The percentage of people who believe there’s chips and 5G in vaccines is tiny. Minuscule. But people who have genuine concerns have been thrown in with them! It’s nonsense and it’s created a divide and rule situation. The vast majority of those who don’t want this vaccine are not anti vax! They’ve had loads of vaccines but have concerns on this. But as usual these days, they’ve been thrown in with the extremes. It’s nonsense.
Society will be improved if those who are stupid enough to believe the conspiracy theories have restricted freedoms.
Oh Jesus. What about those who just believe in medical autonomy? You’ve literally just lumped everyone in with conspiracy theorists. You’ve literally proved my point!
The bigger picture can then be “restrict freedoms to anyone who doesnt go along with the state”. And people are in support of this? Jesus. I’d check how that has worked in history, I really would. At some point you may disagree with the state, and be told you’re a conspiracy theorist. For having a different view. But tough, restrict your freedoms! Can’t you see this? The lack of seeing the bigger picture here is extraordinary. I’m dumbfounded at the naivety.
Vaccine passports were a conspiracy theory anyway a year ago.
(07-20-2021, 10:25 AM)Brentbaggie Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 10:22 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 10:17 AM)Borin' Baggie Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 10:00 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: [ -> ]No! There are many including children under 12 who are specifically but not exclusively vulnerable to Covid. The chance that they would die from a cold or flu for example are significantly smaller than if they caught Covid. Your tough-titty argument can easily be reversed for those perfectly fit and healthy people who can but refuse to have the vaccine, or the passport. You are simply putting the rights of the fittest ahead of the weakest in society. If you're comfortable with this and think rights always trump responsibilities then fair enough but I'm never going to agree or respect that decision. If I'm mistaken then I will apologise in advance.
The argument about 'Fear' is real for many families who could lose a child to Covid and to not even try and see it from their perspective is quire a slap in the face. Passports wouldn't even be on the agenda if people simply had the vaccine in sufficient numbers. We want our rights but we abdicate all responsibility to the rest of society!
You're not going to convince the anti-vax nutters by excluding them from society, you're just going to entrench their views by making them feel like outcasts and they have too few braincells for them to change their minds. If you want to incentivise those who can be won over as they're worried about what benefit the vaccine gives them or they're just too lazy to book a vaccine entice them by giving them a £100 or something, not like that will be an issue given how much taxpayers money this government is happy to spaff up the wall.
You've also got to factor in how this will affect people who can't become eligible either via their underlying health conditions (should they be banned from having fun as well?) or by virtue of their age (if I'm 17 and I've been banned from doing anything fun for 18 months and then I turn 18, book my first vaccine and still can't do anything fun for 8 weeks or 9 weeks due to something outside of my control I would be livid).
Correct. And most of those who haven’t had the vaccine are not anti vax nutters. Throwing the hesitant in with the nutters is not persuasive either.
I also wonder why the government (and Sage) have kept moving goalposts. First the vulnerable needed the vaccine, then adults, now children? The take up has been higher than initially expected by a good way, but that’s still not enough? If the nhs can’t cope with 90% vaccinated, we need to sort the nhs!
"90%?" "We"?
90% I think is the expected take up once second jabs are concluded?
We, as in the country, the government. But yes sorting the nhs has been obvious for years, that’s not new.
(07-20-2021, 10:25 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 10:02 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 09:57 AM)Ted Maul Wrote: [ -> ]There's a distinct difference between those who medically cannot have the vaccine or don't take to it and those that wont take it as they believe it'll hook them up to Bill Gates' 5G.
The former should not suffer because of the latter and neither should the vast majority who have spent the last 16 months adhering to the rules and getting their jabs when available.
And this is part of the trick people have fallen for. The percentage of people who believe there’s chips and 5G in vaccines is tiny. Minuscule. But people who have genuine concerns have been thrown in with them! It’s nonsense and it’s created a divide and rule situation. The vast majority of those who don’t want this vaccine are not anti vax! They’ve had loads of vaccines but have concerns on this. But as usual these days, they’ve been thrown in with the extremes. It’s nonsense.
(07-20-2021, 10:00 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 09:41 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote: [ -> ] (07-20-2021, 08:01 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn’t bother B1, I’ve been saying this for a year. It’s not difficult to comprehend but those who refuse the vaccine simply dismiss the vulnerable’s rights as not as important as their rights to do what the beep they like. It’s the height of selfishness and a mark of petulant child / man-baby.
BB will not say as much but his ott defence of those who won’t vaccinate does mean he favours their rights above those without a choice. It defies logic to argue against this conclusion.
People who want the vaccine can have it, as most of us have. If anyone vaccinated is still scared to ‘mix’ with others, they’re the bloody man babies. Absolutely ridiculous. Are they never going to go shopping again? Ask everyone in the milk aisle for their proof? Many of us have relatives who have died of influenza. They never demanded everyone got the influenza vax! They got it to reduce their chances of dying. Infectious disease is a risk and that’s life.
You keep saying dismissing the right of the vulnerable as less important as their rights. Well you’re doing simply the other way round. Saying the vulnerable rights are more important than peoples choice over their body. That’s just as selfish.
This is about way more than covid. This is about medical autonomy. Is anyone really naive enough to think it’ll stop there? Really? A person may be happy to mandate or coerce this vaccine, but are you happy for the government to pick and choose your future vaccines as they wish taking away your choice? I’m not.
We don’t even know how long the vaccine lasts for!
I know they’re rare but no one seems to care about bad adverse reactions. Some say they’d be exempt, but it’s too late once some have found out they have a bad reaction!
This is insanity, but it seems to me 18 months of covid has got people living their life thinking of pretty much nothing else. Basically structuring the world around covid. Fear is very very powerful. I’m out.
(07-20-2021, 09:33 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: [ -> ]Again you are simply condemning the most vulnerable to a life locked in their house if you do not try and encourage people to have the vaccine. What's the alternative for those people currently? You always ask me for solutions, what's yours for making the lives of the most vulnerable as normal possible? Rights should always come with responsibilities.
No! The vulnerable can have the vaccine! The vulnerable have always been vulnerable to infectious disease. It’s unfortunate but it’s a fact of life. That’s infectious disease for you. With them vaccinated, their chances of death are greatly reduced. With a 90% take up, their chances of illness are greatly reduced. With 100% take up they can still get covid!
You are simply handing medical control over to the government. Not for me. This is about more than covid.
No! There are many including children under 12 who are specifically but not exclusively vulnerable to Covid. The chance that they would die from a cold or flu for example are significantly smaller than if they caught Covid. Your tough-titty argument can easily be reversed for those perfectly fit and healthy people who can but refuse to have the vaccine, or the passport. You are simply putting the rights of the fittest ahead of the weakest in society. If you're comfortable with this and think rights always trump responsibilities then fair enough but I'm never going to agree or respect that decision. If I'm mistaken then I will apologise in advance.
And you’re putting the vulnerable rights ahead of the entire populations medical autonomy. You think it starts and ends with covid? No chance! Medical autonomy is massive, and I will never agree with you on this. I will not hand over my medical choices to the government. You must be insane to, but each to their own. Just watch out for the next thing the government insists you do in order for “the greater good”. History says it’s an old trick in the book for authoritarianism. You put your trust in governments if you want. I’m not.
Yes I am because they are vulnerable and I will try my best to fight for their rights because frankly whilst empty vessels shout loudly about freedoms their voices have been sidelined, forgotten or not cared about since shielding stopped. Someone having to prove they have been vaccinated to go to a club doesn't score that highly on the chart of hardships for me. This medical autonomy phrase is just a meaningless slogan.
It won’t end at nightclubs. It won’t end at this vaccine.
Medical autonomy is just a slogan? Wow! That is incredible. You clearly love government control. I don’t.
"Oh Jesus. What about those who just believe in medical autonomy? You’ve literally just lumped everyone in with conspiracy theorists. You’ve literally proved my point!
Vaccine passports were a conspiracy theory anyway a year ago."
I haven't... If you think it will turn you into a telephone mast or a wind farm, you're a moron. That's all I said.
(07-20-2021, 10:37 AM)Ted Maul Wrote: [ -> ]"Oh Jesus. What about those who just believe in medical autonomy? You’ve literally just lumped everyone in with conspiracy theorists. You’ve literally proved my point!
Vaccine passports were a conspiracy theory anyway a year ago."
I haven't... If you think it will turn you into a telephone mast or a wind farm, you're a moron. That's all I said.
Apologies if that’s what you meant, but how do you separate those from people who may just not want the vaccine for other reasons? It will restrict their freedoms too!
Do you genuinely think that people refusing the Vax think it will turn them into a telephone mast or wind farm?
And what is a conspiracy theory anyway? Are you telling people who have experienced negative effects from these jabs that it is all a conspiracy and they shouldn't worry because Bill Gates can't track them?
Why can all the people who are happy for this to go ahead make anyone not having the jab a crazed anti-vaxxer - either black or white and no middle ground?
And yet these passports will save the planet because all vaxxed people never get Covid or pass it on do they?
Or how long their immunity and presumably therefore ability to transmit will last?
Or people who caught it and recovered - do they not have immunity or is it only the magic vaccine that gives that?
Lots of grey areas there too.