North Macedonia

[Duffers]

Germany have really gone off the bill internationally. Way down in the international rankings. Never known them so bad.
However, with the countries with a pedigree they can soon change things around.
Incredible how England have underperformed since 66 when all the other big European and South American countries have nearly all won not one but two or three tournaments since.

It's called the Albion Phenomenon.

Yep BB I've compared England to Albion before. To be fair though, this is a really good England team. Still expect it'll be France or Belgium who'll win the Euros.

I think we’re a better side than Belgium, we just have a mental block when it comes to performing competitively against the better sides.

France are by far the strongest side in Europe, their depth is frightening.

What do you think causes that `mental block`SW4 ? To be honest, Englands record in tournaments isn`t that impressive. World Cup, won one (at home, every game at Wembley, although had to beat Argentina, Portugal and W Germany, so still impressive ). Otherwise, even with, on paper, good sides, 1970, 1982, 1990 1998 etc , quarter final, or occasional semi final is our limit.
In the Euro`s we have one semi final to our name, again, at home, playing at Wembley, we`ve gone out in the first round in 1988, 1992, 2002. Is it a succession of average coaches, or players feeling the press will crucify them if they play badly ? Surely press /fans expectation and pressure is just as bad in Italy, Germany, Argentina etc.

I’d say it’s a number of factors:

The press is definitely a big issue - players are built up in the media as being world beaters when they clearly are not and then are subsequently hammered when they don’t live up to expectations they get hammered.

Tactically we have always been miles behind the other big nations. English mentality had historically been that you can win things on “passhun” alone and little actual thought is given on how to actually manage the games. The rare occasions we have actually tried to employ tactical managers have gone badly too.

Some times just plain old bad luck or indiscipline - think about the penalty defeats, injuries at key moments, stupid sending offs...

[Ministry Of Silly Signings]

It's called the Albion Phenomenon.

Yep BB I've compared England to Albion before. To be fair though, this is a really good England team. Still expect it'll be France or Belgium who'll win the Euros.

I think we’re a better side than Belgium, we just have a mental block when it comes to performing competitively against the better sides.

France are by far the strongest side in Europe, their depth is frightening.

What do you think causes that `mental block`SW4 ? To be honest, Englands record in tournaments isn`t that impressive. World Cup, won one (at home, every game at Wembley, although had to beat Argentina, Portugal and W Germany, so still impressive ). Otherwise, even with, on paper, good sides, 1970, 1982, 1990 1998 etc , quarter final, or occasional semi final is our limit.
In the Euro`s we have one semi final to our name, again, at home, playing at Wembley, we`ve gone out in the first round in 1988, 1992, 2002. Is it a succession of average coaches, or players feeling the press will crucify them if they play badly ? Surely press /fans expectation and pressure is just as bad in Italy, Germany, Argentina etc.

I’d say it’s a number of factors:

The press is definitely a big issue - players are built up in the media as being world beaters when they clearly are not and then are subsequently hammered when they don’t live up to expectations they get hammered.

Tactically we have always been miles behind the other big nations. English mentality had historically been that you can win things on “passhun” alone and little actual thought is given on how to actually manage the games. The rare occasions we have actually tried to employ tactical managers have gone badly too.

Some times just plain old bad luck or indiscipline - think about the penalty defeats, injuries at key moments, stupid sending offs...

Interesting point about being tactically miles behind. Is that just down to FA coaching courses ? A bloke who was involved with a junior side my lad played for, went to do his FA part 2 course or whatever, said a one legged bloke with 2 glass eyes could pass it, all about `work rate`, tackling back, if in doubt, put it into row z etc.
I remember watching England on BBC in one of our ill fated world cups, being a goal down at half time, the pundits in the studio, ex internationals, Ian Wright & Mark Lawrenson or whoever, said our best bet was to get Emile Heskey on and hoof long balls up to him, ` their defenders won`t fancy that` etc, etc.
I`m pretty certain that defenders from Holland, Italy, Argentina or whatever, long ago worked out how to play against that stuff.

[baggiebloke]

I can't believe we have a thread on Macedonia without reference to Ar Tim, Sakiri.

[Ministry Of Silly Signings]

I can't believe we have a thread on Macedonia without reference to Ar Tim, Sakiri.

Or one of the best football team names ever... FK Sloga Jugomagnet.

[Birdman1811]

The FA coaching courses were changed a lot under Ashworths tenure to try to close the tactics gap.

There's a lot of reasons, all mentioned in this thread. But ultimately there is one I will choose as a hill to die on. We need to stop treating defenders and defending as a whole as some after thought. I even hear fans say they don't care about x persons opinion because he was only a defender.

[Ministry Of Silly Signings]

The FA coaching courses were changed a lot under Ashworths tenure to try to close the tactics gap.

There's a lot of reasons, all mentioned in this thread. But ultimately there is one I will choose as a hill to die on. We need to stop treating defenders and defending as a whole as some after thought. I even hear fans say they don't care about x persons opinion because he was only a defender.

Quite right Birdy. Yes, sometimes you need a defender who, if not skilful on the ball, puts himself in the way, blocks things or whatever. A vital job. But some defenders were brilliant footballers, Baresi, Maldini, Moore, Beckenbauer, Tresor etc.

[Birdman1811]

The FA coaching courses were changed a lot under Ashworths tenure to try to close the tactics gap.

There's a lot of reasons, all mentioned in this thread. But ultimately there is one I will choose as a hill to die on. We need to stop treating defenders and defending as a whole as some after thought. I even hear fans say they don't care about x persons opinion because he was only a defender.

Quite right Birdy. Yes, sometimes you need a defender who, if not skilful on the ball, puts himself in the way, blocks things or whatever. A vital job. But some defenders were brilliant footballers, Baresi, Maldini, Moore, Beckenbauer, Tresor etc.

Both are perfectly valid defending styles.

It's more the general attitude and apathy to defending I dislike. Shit kids go in defence, when logically, stick them up front, get your best players in defence and midfield, that's where games are won and lost, anyone can shin a ball into the net, concentrating and defending for 90 mins is a skill.

The ridiculous concept that defenders rarely win end of season awards, even though almost every single title winning team was reliant on a fantastic defence  often relying on one individual.

It's why I loved Italian football, that's real defending, and they appreciated their defenders  but even they've started to turn as global football sets in. Now it's about superstars doing fancy tricks.

[Ministry Of Silly Signings]

The FA coaching courses were changed a lot under Ashworths tenure to try to close the tactics gap.

There's a lot of reasons, all mentioned in this thread. But ultimately there is one I will choose as a hill to die on. We need to stop treating defenders and defending as a whole as some after thought. I even hear fans say they don't care about x persons opinion because he was only a defender.

Quite right Birdy. Yes, sometimes you need a defender who, if not skilful on the ball, puts himself in the way, blocks things or whatever. A vital job. But some defenders were brilliant footballers, Baresi, Maldini, Moore, Beckenbauer, Tresor etc.

Both are perfectly valid defending styles.

It's more the general attitude and apathy to defending I dislike. Shit kids go in defence, when logically, stick them up front, get your best players in defence and midfield, that's where games are won and lost, anyone can shin a ball into the net, concentrating and defending for 90 mins is a skill.

The ridiculous concept that defenders rarely win end of season awards, even though almost every single title winning team was reliant on a fantastic defence  often relying on one individual.

It's why I loved Italian football, that's real defending, and they appreciated their defenders  but even they've started to turn as global football sets in. Now it's about superstars doing fancy tricks.

Italy probably had more than most. Baresi and Maldini maybe the best known, but Cannavaro, Facchetti, Scirea, Cabrini, all world class. I remember in the early 90`s, they had one named Roberto Cravero. Played for a mid table side,Genoa, IIRC. Because of Baresi etc, only got about 2 caps. Played in a `B` international against England, made Bully look like a complete donkey, offside every time he crossed the half way line.
Romania had a good one, Miodrag Belodedici, nicknamed `The Gazelle`. Bulgaria had that thug with the beard, Trifon Ivanov, nicknamed `Ivan The Terrible`.

[Duffers]

In Italy they prize discipline, shape and tactical awareness. Their mantra is if you’re making a tackle then you’ve already made a mistake. In this country we celebrate layers who charge around like madmen making crazy last ditch tackles (the popularity of John Terry is testament to this).

This is why Ledley King was our best defender in years. The fact that he could barely move meant he had to stay in position at all times.

[Birdman1811]

In Italy they prize discipline, shape and tactical awareness. Their mantra is if you’re making a tackle then you’ve already made a mistake. In this country we celebrate layers who charge around like madmen making crazy last ditch tackles (the popularity of John Terry is testament to this).

This is why Ledley King was our best defender in years. The fact that he could barely move meant he had to stay in position at all times.

King, Woodgate and Ferdinand should have made sure Terry and Carragher never got near the England first 11.

Sadly injuries did for 2 of them.