UK Covid death toll

[Ted Maul]

Happy with my conscience and will keep striving to help people understand actually what's going on. I will keep doing it for my kids and my kids kids. What's a foot is corruption and fraud on a massive scale.

Lockdowns don't work otherwise why 2 and why a spring one mentioned.

How come masks aren't working either.

Like I've said Im not trying to convert people.just provide a.non Ofcom msm handcuffed set of information.

As for you Dekka I can put up with you being stupid but I don't have to.put up with your pathetic digs so fuck off

Why are you so against wearing a mask? They obviously have some benefits, you've alluded in an earlier post to the fact we've barely seen the flu this year and speaking for myself, I've made it to November without so much as a cold. I'd happily keep some of the regulations we've seen brought in over the past few months, people are generally taking more care and consideration r.e. hygiene in public and I wouldn't mind at all if they wanted us to keep masks on in shops. At the very least, if it makes other, more vulnerable people feel a bit safer then surely it's the right and responsible thing to do. It's a very small gesture.

Lockdowns as a tool to slow the spread and give the NHS greater capacity DO WORK. Lockdown 1.0 worked, it slowed and eventually decreased the rise in cases and the only reason we're in a second one is because our Government used the time to spend £12bn on a badly put together spreadsheet rather than an effective track and trace system.

If we are released from the current lockdown into the tier system (do you agree with this?) and a vaccine is gradually made available in the lead up to Christmas, then we may avoid a further shut down during the winter. If (and it's very possible), Johnson and his pals turn the vaccination programme into another of their infamous shitshows then we're likely to have to face up to Lockdown 3.0. Until we've got as close to zero Covid as possible, the economy is never going to function as it did.

[billybassett]

I will reply tomorrow on the above.

Some light maybe at the end of the tunnel though on testing , the first time on the BBC Dr Pollock gets on and is allowed some home truths to be told: https://twitter.com/Christi46847375/stat...82913?s=09

[Derek Hardballs]

Is this just a bad flu? If the answer received is yes walk away from the person saying it. Preferably as quickly as possibly as they’re probably refusing to wear a mask and have protest to go to.

Happy with my conscience and will keep striving to help people understand actually what's going on. I will keep doing it for my kids and my kids kids. What's a foot is corruption and fraud on a massive scale.

Lockdowns don't work otherwise why 2 and why a spring one mentioned.

How come masks aren't working either.

Like I've said Im not trying to convert people.just provide a.non Ofcom msm handcuffed set of information.

As for you Dekka I can put up with you being stupid but I don't have to.put up with your pathetic digs so fuck off

---

"Ok I'll bite, why?" - baggy1

For me it's the thought process I find chilling:

You see covid cases falling
You see other respiratory illness cases non existent
You are experts in immunology 101 so you know about TCells, immunity etc

Yet you then decide to send the army into this place to find the virus - for what purpose?

Scale - we have a load of military personnel that can help out by carrying out the testing. It frees up the local teams and NHS to get on with what they do best, whilst the relatively low skill testing is carried out in volume to speed up the process. No conspiracy.

---

What is the purpose of doing this mass testing?

The people being tested are standing in queues which contain both those with symptoms and those without so surely this runs the risk of people who are fine getting infected going for a test. They won't test positive that day but how many days does that 'negative test' hold good for?

Look at the Albion for example - Pereira and Ivanovic played football last Monday evening yet tested positive for Covid on Tuesday. So did they just get up on Tuesday with Covid? How many days before a match are the players tested? Surely there is every chance that they had it whilst playing against Fulham.

To me it seems like a massive waste of money for something that only gives an indication at a set point in time. Especially when the tests used are 96% accurate. So when Boris gets up to his 10 million people a day being tested that will equate to just the 400k being falsely told to isolate. They of course will be isolating for 14 days so on a rolling scale we will see in the region of 5 million people isolating at any given time.

It's worse than that. 32,970,188 tests have already been done. Must be a whacking great percentage of the population tested at some point - probably 30-40%.

It's not solved a thing has it. Why? The test is at maximum 30% accurate and I'm being very very generous. But when you've ordered 30m tests at a cost of £400m then you must use them mustn't you? Got to keep the contracts and revenue streams flowing.

If it was smallpox then yes testing/isolating etc But it's a bad flu.

I read an interesting scientific piece about the tradewinds circulating respiratory viruses and how they chase around the world in a certain pattern. The point being you can't control it with lockdowns, masks, social distancing or hand washing. All you do is delay the inevitable until the community reaches the necessary immunity level.

Those are tests completed not people, some people will be tested multiple times (medical staff, those in hospital etc.) - in a population of 65M, there have been 32M tests and possibly less than 16M of those different people, we simply don't know because the politicians refuse to answer the question. It could be as low as 10% and as high as 50%, i'd be erring on the side of about 20%.

And it's not a bad flu FFS, when have we ever had an excess death total of 66k in this country? And what was the highest excess death total caused by flu?

It's your perogative to believe that all excess deaths marked as Covid are actually death by covid.

I don't believe theres any  evidence to suggest that and would say that if "of covid" is 25% of that it's a big estimate

Simply an honest position. You continually say it’s just a bad flu and yet people far better qualified than you disagree. Comparison

I gave up talking to you civilly about this subject when you dismissed my polite and well reasoned position of standing up for the rights of the most vulnerable during the pandemic with a single word.., ‘yawn’. The most honest and telling thing you have said on this subject.

[billybassett]

Happy with my conscience and will keep striving to help people understand actually what's going on. I will keep doing it for my kids and my kids kids. What's a foot is corruption and fraud on a massive scale.

Lockdowns don't work otherwise why 2 and why a spring one mentioned.

How come masks aren't working either.

Like I've said Im not trying to convert people.just provide a.non Ofcom msm handcuffed set of information.

As for you Dekka I can put up with you being stupid but I don't have to.put up with your pathetic digs so fuck off

Why are you so against wearing a mask? They obviously have some benefits, you've alluded in an earlier post to the fact we've barely seen the flu this year and speaking for myself, I've made it to November without so much as a cold. I'd happily keep some of the regulations we've seen brought in over the past few months, people are generally taking more care and consideration r.e. hygiene in public and I wouldn't mind at all if they wanted us to keep masks on in shops. At the very least, if it makes other, more vulnerable people feel a bit safer then surely it's the right and responsible thing to do. It's a very small gesture.

Lockdowns as a tool to slow the spread and give the NHS greater capacity DO WORK. Lockdown 1.0 worked, it slowed and eventually decreased the rise in cases and the only reason we're in a second one is because our Government used the time to spend £12bn on a badly put together spreadsheet rather than an effective track and trace system.

If we are released from the current lockdown into the tier system (do you agree with this?) and a vaccine is gradually made available in the lead up to Christmas, then we may avoid a further shut down during the winter. If (and it's very possible), Johnson and his pals turn the vaccination programme into another of their infamous shitshows then we're likely to have to face up to Lockdown 3.0. Until we've got as close to zero Covid as possible, the economy is never going to function as it did.

With regards to the bold bit. Sincerely hoping you're not vulnerable, ill or have close family members who are. Nobody wants people who are ill and vulnerable to die or to be put under any more risk than necessary. If you do then I can guess that may be a valid place you'd like to see us in - for all the obvious reasons.

If you're not then I'm unsure as to the motive. I can't imagine a society I'd want myself or my kids to live in where we were in such a constant state of fear or anxiety to give up all the pleasures of living in a social society such that we have to wear masks or keep our distance because of a "bad flu" (yes I'll keep saying it). In no other year in the last 50, when there have been equally bad influenza and respiratory outbreaks, have we done so and we've managed to live with things proportionately.

As for the proposition that it's safer and a more responsible thing to do for ALL of us is in my mind preposterous. Subjecting 99.9% of a healthy population to measures that reduce their liberty, freedom, socialisation, fun, joy is not for me. It would be completely out of proportion to any risk and the slippery slope to further draconian measures some of which have already been mentioned like: having to have a test to get a job, having to have had a vaccine to travel, being controlled and scared by an authoritarian government. Don't get me wrong if it was ebola or an actual lethal virus then the measures would be in proportion to the current lethality of that virus. But a respiratory cov variant virus. No.

As for masks. Nowhere in the last 8 months where masks were enforced with the full power of the law since day 1 have they made any difference. BMJ studies, over a number of years, of mask use in highly risk clinical settings have results that are not conclusive one way or the other.

As for your question about the tiering. Then if any lockdown was really necessary to actually protect the health service then a proportionate local way to go would be more effective. But firstly you have to believe that there was an issue, secondly that the issue was caused by admissions and not staff being off work because they had a false positive test (37% of staff in Yorkshire), and thirdly that the cost of doing that was less than the cost of locking that area down (total cost and benefits of all health, business, economy etc). On all counts in my mind the threshold was not reached.

Like I say when you've got millions upon millions of our money staked into testing, tracing, ppe and vaccination contracts stopping that tanker without signing your own political career death warrant (undersigned by tory donors) is basically impossible so you're left with pursuing the approach we have.

---

Dekka wrote:

"Simply an honest position. You continually say it’s just a bad flu and yet people far better qualified than you disagree. Comparison

I gave up talking to you civilly about this subject when you dismissed my polite and well reasoned position of standing up for the rights of the most vulnerable during the pandemic with a single word.., ‘yawn’. The most honest and telling thing you have said on this subject."

I had to stop reading the comparison when I saw the phrase "Many more people are susceptible to COVID-19 because there is little preexisting immunity to the virus that causes it—SARS-CoV-2". 100% incorrect based on current knowledge of the genome, 30,000 pairs sequenced at the start of the year, and its comparison to 4 existing flu variants. But then I saw the foundation is sponsored to the tune of £3bn by Bloomberg and then the dots started to form.

I can keep saying it because I believe it to be true. You believe it's much much worse than influenza because you believe all the deaths registered as Covid deaths were deaths from Covid. If you believe that then there's really no helping you.

If you really believe I said "Yawn" to that then you're a bigger self righteous cock than I already thought.

[baggy1]

Billy - You keep saying the same thing but when questioned you keep avoiding the answer - simple question: when in the last 50 years has there been an equally bad influenza or respiratory disease.

[Ted Maul]

Happy with my conscience and will keep striving to help people understand actually what's going on. I will keep doing it for my kids and my kids kids. What's a foot is corruption and fraud on a massive scale.

Lockdowns don't work otherwise why 2 and why a spring one mentioned.

How come masks aren't working either.

Like I've said Im not trying to convert people.just provide a.non Ofcom msm handcuffed set of information.

As for you Dekka I can put up with you being stupid but I don't have to.put up with your pathetic digs so fuck off

Why are you so against wearing a mask? They obviously have some benefits, you've alluded in an earlier post to the fact we've barely seen the flu this year and speaking for myself, I've made it to November without so much as a cold. I'd happily keep some of the regulations we've seen brought in over the past few months, people are generally taking more care and consideration r.e. hygiene in public and I wouldn't mind at all if they wanted us to keep masks on in shops. At the very least, if it makes other, more vulnerable people feel a bit safer then surely it's the right and responsible thing to do. It's a very small gesture.

Lockdowns as a tool to slow the spread and give the NHS greater capacity DO WORK. Lockdown 1.0 worked, it slowed and eventually decreased the rise in cases and the only reason we're in a second one is because our Government used the time to spend £12bn on a badly put together spreadsheet rather than an effective track and trace system.

If we are released from the current lockdown into the tier system (do you agree with this?) and a vaccine is gradually made available in the lead up to Christmas, then we may avoid a further shut down during the winter. If (and it's very possible), Johnson and his pals turn the vaccination programme into another of their infamous shitshows then we're likely to have to face up to Lockdown 3.0. Until we've got as close to zero Covid as possible, the economy is never going to function as it did.

With regards to the bold bit. Sincerely hoping you're not vulnerable, ill or have close family members who are. Nobody wants people who are ill and vulnerable to die or to be put under any more risk than necessary. If you do then I can guess that may be a valid place you'd like to see us in - for all the obvious reasons.

If you're not then I'm unsure as to the motive. I can't imagine a society I'd want myself or my kids to live in where we were in such a constant state of fear or anxiety to give up all the pleasures of living in a social society such that we have to wear masks or keep our distance because of a "bad flu" (yes I'll keep saying it). In no other year in the last 50, when there have been equally bad influenza and respiratory outbreaks, have we done so and we've managed to live with things proportionately.

As for the proposition that it's safer and a more responsible thing to do for ALL of us is in my mind preposterous. Subjecting 99.9% of a healthy population to measures that reduce their liberty, freedom, socialisation, fun, joy is not for me. It would be completely out of proportion to any risk and the slippery slope to further draconian measures some of which have already been mentioned like: having to have a test to get a job, having to have had a vaccine to travel, being controlled and scared by an authoritarian government. Don't get me wrong if it was ebola or an actual lethal virus then the measures would be in proportion to the current lethality of that virus. But a respiratory cov variant virus. No.

As for masks. Nowhere in the last 8 months where masks were enforced with the full power of the law since day 1 have they made any difference. BMJ studies, over a number of years, of mask use in highly risk clinical settings have results that are not conclusive one way or the other.

As for your question about the tiering. Then if any lockdown was really necessary to actually protect the health service then a proportionate local way to go would be more effective. But firstly you have to believe that there was an issue, secondly that the issue was caused by admissions and not staff being off work because they had a false positive test (37% of staff in Yorkshire), and thirdly that the cost of doing that was less than the cost of locking that area down (total cost and benefits of all health, business, economy etc). On all counts in my mind the threshold was not reached.

Like I say when you've got millions upon millions of our money staked into testing, tracing, ppe and vaccination contracts stopping that tanker without signing your own political career death warrant (undersigned by tory donors) is basically impossible so you're left with pursuing the approach we have.

---

Dekka wrote:

"Simply an honest position. You continually say it’s just a bad flu and yet people far better qualified than you disagree. Comparison

I gave up talking to you civilly about this subject when you dismissed my polite and well reasoned position of standing up for the rights of the most vulnerable during the pandemic with a single word.., ‘yawn’. The most honest and telling thing you have said on this subject."

I had to stop reading the comparison when I saw the phrase "Many more people are susceptible to COVID-19 because there is little preexisting immunity to the virus that causes it—SARS-CoV-2". 100% incorrect based on current knowledge of the genome, 30,000 pairs sequenced at the start of the year, and its comparison to 4 existing flu variants. But then I saw the foundation is sponsored to the tune of £3bn by Bloomberg and then the dots started to form.

I can keep saying it because I believe it to be true. You believe it's much much worse than influenza because you believe all the deaths registered as Covid deaths were deaths from Covid. If you believe that then there's really no helping you.

If you really believe I said "Yawn" to that then you're a bigger self righteous cock than I already thought.

Is wearing a mask really impinging on your liberty, freedom, ability to socialise, fun or joy? 

In the weeks prior to lockdown I travelled into Birmingham to catch up with a friend I'd not seen for years (outside), all I had to do was wear a mask on the train and when going to and from the toilet. Each week in order to buy food I put a mask on for 30 minutes. Not once this year have I thought "I don't want to do that, I don't want to wear a mask". In fact, as we've barely seen any flu this year and I've not so much as had a cold, I wouldn't mind continuing wearing a mask, especially on public transport and in larger shops. 

Forgive me if I've missed the point. Out of interest, what would your approach be?

[JOK]

---

It's your perogative to believe that all excess deaths marked as Covid are actually death by covid.

I don't believe theres any  evidence to suggest that and would say that if "of covid" is 25% of that it's a big estimate

Simply an honest position. You continually say it’s just a bad flu and yet people far better qualified than you disagree. Comparison

I gave up talking to you civilly about this subject when you dismissed my polite and well reasoned position of standing up for the rights of the most vulnerable during the pandemic with a single word.., ‘yawn’. The most honest and telling thing you have said on this subject.

I think the ‘yawn’ was for me when;
I proved his claim wrong that hospital admissions weren’t rising.

Proved his claim false that Addenbrookes HAD produced a report to say 50% of tests gave a false reading.  (I think he has since increased that claim to 100% at one point.)

Proved his claim wrong on mortality rates being half of what they were at the time.

Proved his claim that the W.H.O. stated infection rates were max. 0.2% false by providing a link to their latest communique where it said it was up to 10%.

Proved his assertion that before the pandemic the W.H.O. had advised against Track and Trace was false with a link to prove they actually recommended the process in 2019.

And, I’m ashamed to say, I pointed out his inability to understand the concept of metaphors.
The 'yawn' is just his equivalent of the toddler denying it has scribbled on the wall whilst still holding the crayon. Just ignoring the facts. 
Still, the username is pretty apt really. It takes ‘All Sorts.’

[baggiebuckster]

Not sure of the ages of people on here to determine when you will become eligible for the vaccine but out of interest who will be happy to jump straight in and take the jab assuming it is available early next year?

[baggy1]

As I'm in the 50+ bracket I'm 9th or 10th on the list so it will take a while to get to me but I'll take it, I take the flu jab each year so I'll do the same for the covid jab. It will take some time to work down though as we have an initial batch of 40m and each person has to take two so 20m people. Once you have got through the frontline workers (NHS staff, care home workers) then the 12m over 65 in the country they will need to get a new batch before I'm even in with a shot (no pun intended)

[JOK]

Not sure of the ages of people on here to determine when you will become eligible for the vaccine but out of interest who will be happy to jump straight in and take the jab assuming it is available early next year?

Not sure where we come in the queue but though my financial controller will be ahead of me in the list (I'm a victim of cradle snatching) I think I would prefer to have it first and leave it a month or so before she has it.