UK Covid death toll

[baggy1]

That’s what I thought keep them and their families inside so you can go and do anything you like!

If it's the price of keeping the economy going and our kids educated then it's worth it.

It could also achieve more immunity in the population faster which may be helping Sweden as the only place in Europe that hasnt had a second wave yet. I’m not saying it’s definitely the case, god knows what the best plan is, but we can’t keep coming in and out of lockdown for a vaccine that might never come. If, and it’s still a big if, Sweden don’t get a second wave, it doesn’t half support letting the healthy population get Covid as it will kill so few of them, while protecting the old and vulnerable. Obviously this is bloody difficult to get right. But what isn’t?

Oh FFS 

I wasn't even going to respond to this but over the past 14 days the cumulative number of covid cases across the EU by 100,000 of population puts Sweden in about the same position as Germany, Poland, Bulgaria, Norway and Lithuania. It puts them in a worse position than Finland and Latvia.

FFS Please, please, please can we stop using Sweden as a measurement of something that has succeeded, they haven't.

I wasn’t, that’s why I said if. I just think immunity is a factor worth taking into account. Time will tell if they had it right or wrong.

I know hence the FFS 

There is a bit of an urban myth that they have just continued as normal, they have had restrictions, it's just that their population are generally better at applying rules than we are. And they are more spread out.

[Derek Hardballs]

So what your saying is the vulnerable and those that care for them must isolate themselves until we have a vaccine?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

That’s what I thought keep them and their families inside so you can go and do anything you like!

If it's the price of keeping the economy going and our kids educated then it's worth it.

You seem to think the only people who are shielding are older people in care homes or living on their own or in a couple. The reality is there are people of all ages who are shielding as best they can (there are no special measures for them currently) was be it for themselves or their loved ones. Some have children that have to go to school, some families have older members living with them, some are disabled and rely on others to look after them. So the idea all those people can isolate for six months whilst selfish people can do whatever they want shows a complete lack of understanding of  how communities work. Who knew a true blue wouldn’t understand community?

As your mate Dave once said we are all in this together but I imagine you think you’re exempt. Really trying to keep this civil Proth but you’re selfishness towards the most vulnerable is wearing thin.

[baggy1]

It appears that you are both right but are continuing to argue a point here.

We agree that the economy has to continue to work - albeit reduced.

We agree that schools / education need to be operating as best as they can

We agree that some businesses will suffer and there isn't much we can do about it.

We agree that hospitals need to be treating the sick.

We agree that there are some that will have to shield.

Which bits are you pair actually disagreeing on?

I don't think Proth (he doesn't need me to defend him) is saying everything goes back to normal are you? and I don't think Dekka is saying close everything down are you?

[Derek Hardballs]

It appears that you are both right but are continuing to argue a point here.

We agree that the economy has to continue to work - albeit reduced.

We agree that schools / education need to be operating as best as they can

We agree that some businesses will suffer and there isn't much we can do about it.

We agree that hospitals need to be treating the sick.

We agree that there are some that will have to shield.

Which bits are you pair actually disagreeing on?

I don't think Proth (he doesn't need me to defend him) is saying everything goes back to normal are you? and I don't think Dekka is saying close everything down are you?

No I’m not advocating that we go into full lockdown but I am advocating that the rules are enforced properly moving forward and that the government gets a grip on a test and trace system that is failing whether that means giving it back to the experts (those in Public Health) rather than persist with Serco etc then so be it. 

One thing though Baggy it’s nigh on impossible currently to shield properly so opening back up further would see those people imprisoned or very much at risk over the winter.

[baggy1]

I’m pretty certain there will be little to none chance of anything opening up more than it is now. Schools need to stay open, hospitals too, but pubs are an obvious casualty here.

[Protheroe]

You seem to think the only people who are shielding are older people in care homes or living on their own or in a couple. The reality is there are people of all ages who are shielding as best they can (there are no special measures for them currently) was be it for themselves or their loved ones. Some have children that have to go to school, some families have older members living with them, some are disabled and rely on others to look after them. So the idea all those people can isolate for six months whilst selfish people can do whatever they want shows a complete lack of understanding of  how communities work. Who knew a true blue wouldn’t understand community?

As your mate Dave once said we are all in this together but I imagine you think you’re exempt. Really trying to keep this civil Proth but you’re selfishness towards the most vulnerable is wearing thin.

No, you seem to imagine I think that.

You don't seem to understand that whole communities will collapse without a functioning economy and the social framework provided by schools.

We are in extreme times. The opportunity cost of our economy and education system being even partially closed is phenonemal.

And you call me selfish? Without a functioning economy there is zero help for the most vulnerable. As it is we're fucked for the next two or three decades paying this shit back and you want to prolong the agony? I suggest you take a look in the mirror before throwing your accusations about.

[Derek Hardballs]

You seem to think the only people who are shielding are older people in care homes or living on their own or in a couple. The reality is there are people of all ages who are shielding as best they can (there are no special measures for them currently) was be it for themselves or their loved ones. Some have children that have to go to school, some families have older members living with them, some are disabled and rely on others to look after them. So the idea all those people can isolate for six months whilst selfish people can do whatever they want shows a complete lack of understanding of  how communities work. Who knew a true blue wouldn’t understand community?

As your mate Dave once said we are all in this together but I imagine you think you’re exempt. Really trying to keep this civil Proth but you’re selfishness towards the most vulnerable is wearing thin.

No, you seem to imagine I think that.

You don't seem to understand that whole communities will collapse without a functioning economy and the social framework provided by schools.

We are in extreme times. The opportunity cost of our economy and education system being even partially closed is phenonemal.

And you call me selfish? Without a functioning economy there is zero help for the most vulnerable. As it is we're fucked for the next two or three decades paying this shit back and you want to prolong the agony? I suggest you take a look in the mirror before throwing your accusations about.

So you want no lockdown measures at all?

I don’t recall saying I wanted to close the economy down but there has to be a balance that doesn’t mean the most vulnerable are trapped in their homes for months potentially years. Or even thousands who aren’t as vulnerable but will get very ill and perhaps suffer long term illness if we don’t take reasonable steps to keep each other safe. If those obsessed with their liberties won’t wear a mask, keep their distance, keep good general hygiene, not gather in large groups and wear a mask when going shopping, to the pub, protest etc then that is a sorry indictment of the U.K. in 2020. Everyone has a right to liberty but it comes with a responsibility for others.

[Protheroe]

So you want no lockdown measures at all?

I don’t recall saying I wanted to close the economy down but there has to be a balance that doesn’t mean the most vulnerable are trapped in their homes for months potentially years. Or even thousands who aren’t as vulnerable but will get very ill and perhaps suffer long term illness if we don’t take reasonable steps to keep each other safe. If those obsessed with their liberties won’t wear a mask, keep their distance, keep good general hygiene, not gather in large groups and wear a mask when going shopping, to the pub, protest etc then that is a sorry indictment of the U.K. in 2020. Everyone has a right to liberty but it comes with a responsibility for others.

Yes, I agree. The responsibility of those who need to shield is to let the rest of us get on with ensuring there's a functioning society and economy for them to come back to when they deem it safe to return (our responsibility). We have at least six more months of this shit, and after yesterday's announcement I'm revising up my predictions of  prospective unemployment.

[Fido]

Is anyone keeping a tally of how many times DH misses the point on this thread?

[Derek Hardballs]

So you want no lockdown measures at all?

I don’t recall saying I wanted to close the economy down but there has to be a balance that doesn’t mean the most vulnerable are trapped in their homes for months potentially years. Or even thousands who aren’t as vulnerable but will get very ill and perhaps suffer long term illness if we don’t take reasonable steps to keep each other safe. If those obsessed with their liberties won’t wear a mask, keep their distance, keep good general hygiene, not gather in large groups and wear a mask when going shopping, to the pub, protest etc then that is a sorry indictment of the U.K. in 2020. Everyone has a right to liberty but it comes with a responsibility for others.

Yes, I agree. The responsibility of those who need to shield is to let the rest of us get on with ensuring there's a functioning society and economy for them to come back to when they deem it safe to return (our responsibility). We have at least six more months of this shit, and after yesterday's announcement I'm revising up my predictions of  prospective unemployment.

Are saying no lockdown measures at all apart from asking everyone shielding to stay in their houses plus their families? How many times have you dodged this question now?