Drive-through flu vaccine

[Birdman1811]

What insults?

People who are more qualified than you say different to you, so therefore I'm happy to say you're wrong. Same as anything, those qualified to give opinions, have weightier opinions.

Yes the survival rate is high, no one doubts that, however for the at risk group it's not. It also leaves quite lasting damage on people who have had it severe enough. Edge to the proteins on the viruses spikes it causes heart, lung and neurogical damage, thats what they are more worried about.

With novel viruses there is ways more caution, there has to be, we are still building up the full profile of this virus. I'm certainly not one to advocate for a lockdown, the damage to the economy and to peoples mental health is too great.

However we should absolutely be wearing masks, tracking and tracking contacts appropriately with adequate testing. Offering support to those having to isolate. Keeping a level of social distancing going, while allowing businesses to operate.

The government have failed, very badly, and this us not helped by the stupidity of some people, but nothing shocks me anymore with that.

[baggy1]

I agree with your first part of your first statement. But it's not opinion it's about clinical conclusion. There can be no.opinion on peer reviewed science. It gets built on and refined but not on the basis of opinion.

https://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfec...5/fulltext

Currently 2020 is 8th on the list of most excess deaths in the UK in the last 27 years.

I'll say it again because the is a monumental tragedy - and I'm.not talking about Covid - PCR tests will give circa 90% false positives, if you count people with Covid as people dying with Covid you can create a climate of fear, face masks don't work see Argentina and Denver state analysis plus peer reviewed paper 2015, Who report gives infection mortality rate as 0.05% for under 70s.

I could go on. If anyone needs any help understanding this I can help

To help people understand this it needs to be put in context, you haven't defined what is being used here as excess deaths, is it the previous year, is it the 5YA. Also are you comparing last the full 12 month period or the 10 months to date in 2020.

So using the ONS data for annual death figures going back to 1963 and comparing that with the last 12 months figures available (week 41 2019 to week 40 2020), I can only see 4 years with a higher number of deaths in the year (1985, 1979, 1976 and 1972) and each one of these is likely to be passed over the next few weeks as the difference is under 10k for all of them (1976 the only one near 10k).

However and this is the problem, we aren't taking into account populations, health conditions and any unusual factors (1976 was a heatwave IIRC). So the only real basis we can use is recent years and this year has surpassed the number of deaths in every year of the last decade by a minimum of 47k (2018) and a maximum of 104k (2011).

So in summary your figure of there being 7 worse years in the last 27 is rubbish imo.

[JOK]

The bug is flu.. A bad one admittedly.. But still flu.

The measures used will kill far more people.in the long run. Not sure if you care about that or not. Whitty and Vallance will hopefully be up in front of some form of judge in the future. It's scandalous if you care to understand the science , the manslaughter theyve presided over...

 
Hospital admissions are the highest in a decade. Between April and September there were over 300,000 extra admissions compared to last year. This is also against a fall in admissions for elective surgery. So, not sure where you get your “Same as the last four years” from.
For every study you throw up that says general wearing of face masks doesn’t work there are scores which say it does help in reducing the transmission of viruses, Simple cloth masks do not prevent the wearer from catching the virus but it definitely and significantly reduces the chances of the wearer from spreading it through moisture droplets (if worn correctly).
 
Using emotive and highly defamatory terms to accuse certain scientists of “manslaughter” is totally beyond the pale.

So, many on here, with a differing view to you, are “ignorant idiots“ and you condescendingly inform us that if we “care to understand the science” and “If anyone needs any help understanding this (you) can help”. Can you please then, as somebody once said, ‘tell us where you obtained your doctorate in epidemiology’, your degree in statistics and how long you have been a virologist?  Just asking on behalf of all we idiotic ignoramuses. 

You say manslaughter is beyond the pale. Maybe it is. But those in the camp of this is a lethal "disease" stop at all costs mantra are to me completely ignorant of the total costs to what is going on and for that they will be culpable to the future toll their views will have on 99.7% of the population who are not even close to being endangered by this.

I'm not an epidemiologist. My wife works for a big pharma, my son is a biologist, I'm a mathemetician/statistician. Whilst I'm not claiming to be any more than that I've done a hell of a lot of reading over the last 12 weeks on all sides of the debate and I've drawn a conclusion that I'm 100% convinced of. And now thankfully WHO (Iannadis revised down IFR to 0.12-0.2% yesterday) and many eminent others (GBD) are putting info out there to stop this madness.

If you're incapable of even reading around the issues (there are many), start with the PCR test and taking a view that you can promulgate here, then I fear I am in need of trying to help inform idiotic ignoramuses who probably just suck up what's on bbc or in the daily mail (OFCOM handcuffed). Of course what you do with that information is up to you. In favour of a full lockdown then? I've told you what I believe all you've done is try and fail to discredit what I've said. A typical social media pandemic response.

There’s that arrogance again.
What I am capable of is listening to the thousands of scientists, epidemiologists, statisticians, hospital administrators et al from all around the World and accepting that they may know more than me and I’m also capable of not taking notice of one person who’s good at Pythagoras’s theory and thinks he knows more than infinitely  more experienced and qualified experts. (Even if they do disagree with each other)
And like all those who have a ‘belief’ your eyes are closed to reason so thee is little point any of us “idiotic  ignoramuses” on here trying to discredit your ‘belief’ as it has little credit anyway.
You clearly ‘believe’ that the small percentage of at risk population should just be abandoned to their fate.  There are 11 murders per 1,000,000 in the U.K. (0.0011% I think but you can work it out better than an idiot) so should we just let murders get on with it and let them carry on as they please? (Reductio ad absurdum, I know)

Still no facts re covid then and then you show me what an idiot you are by comparing covid to murder.

I'm the only one posting some evidence on these boards. And yes I'm posting what I believe to be sensible evidence that supports my considered view and I'm happy to listen to others when they do the same. The fact is you haven't so keep your head in the sand and let the future burn eh.

---

People like Billy are impossible to debate and discuss with

You don't know me so you have no clue what im like to debate with. It would be good if people would post evidence to counter my view. I'm open to it. Trouble is you're not and nobody is apart from.baggy1. Just a murder stat ffs.

---

 "Still no facts" 
I gave you an irrefutable stat to counter your false claim that hospital admissions were at the same level as the last four years. 
You have been asked twice to link the Addenbrookes report you claim backs up your ‘belief’ but haven’t.   The only 50% I can see from them is the fact “studies have shown that PCR tests can miss as many as a half of infected patients five days after infection.” Notice that is MISS the infection NOT give a false positive.
In that same report , dated. 02/09/‘20, They show “there were four false positive results with one test and only one false positive with the second test,” out of 21.  (So that’s 19% & 4.8% respectively. Far from the 50% you erroneously claimed) This report, by the way, was on their success in detecting the virus using two different PCR tests. 
https://www.cuh.nhs.uk/news/combining-pc...ody-tests/
N.B. I have gone back to July on their site to try and find any report from them specifically on false negatives. There isn’t one.
 
The overall mortality rate is 0.66% not 0.3% as you claim and that doesn’t take into account the long term effects, some are suffering, which are now being found.
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1327
 
Re infection rates “Covid May have affected over 10% of the population”. WHO. Stated 05/10/ ‘20. I can find no newer communique giving the figures you allege.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/covid...n-n1242118
 
I countered, with a link, your inaccurate claim that the WHO had, before this pandemic, advised that track and trace was  a “tool never to be used”. You haven’t provided a link to ‘prove’ your claim.
I and others, in this thread alone,  have countered you claims with genuine statistics and figures so please don’t insult us further by saying we haven’t. Even though you do ‘believe’ us to be idiots and ignorant.
 
The murder thing was a metaphor for emphasis FFS. (The Latin means ‘reduction to absurdity’ by the way) You might be “100% certain” regarding differential calculus but clearly Critical English comprehension is not your forte. Perhaps that’s where you’re going wrong with all this scientific reading you’re doing!

[billybassett]

 
Hospital admissions are the highest in a decade. Between April and September there were over 300,000 extra admissions compared to last year. This is also against a fall in admissions for elective surgery. So, not sure where you get your “Same as the last four years” from.
For every study you throw up that says general wearing of face masks doesn’t work there are scores which say it does help in reducing the transmission of viruses, Simple cloth masks do not prevent the wearer from catching the virus but it definitely and significantly reduces the chances of the wearer from spreading it through moisture droplets (if worn correctly).
 
Using emotive and highly defamatory terms to accuse certain scientists of “manslaughter” is totally beyond the pale.

So, many on here, with a differing view to you, are “ignorant idiots“ and you condescendingly inform us that if we “care to understand the science” and “If anyone needs any help understanding this (you) can help”. Can you please then, as somebody once said, ‘tell us where you obtained your doctorate in epidemiology’, your degree in statistics and how long you have been a virologist?  Just asking on behalf of all we idiotic ignoramuses. 

You say manslaughter is beyond the pale. Maybe it is. But those in the camp of this is a lethal "disease" stop at all costs mantra are to me completely ignorant of the total costs to what is going on and for that they will be culpable to the future toll their views will have on 99.7% of the population who are not even close to being endangered by this.

I'm not an epidemiologist. My wife works for a big pharma, my son is a biologist, I'm a mathemetician/statistician. Whilst I'm not claiming to be any more than that I've done a hell of a lot of reading over the last 12 weeks on all sides of the debate and I've drawn a conclusion that I'm 100% convinced of. And now thankfully WHO (Iannadis revised down IFR to 0.12-0.2% yesterday) and many eminent others (GBD) are putting info out there to stop this madness.

If you're incapable of even reading around the issues (there are many), start with the PCR test and taking a view that you can promulgate here, then I fear I am in need of trying to help inform idiotic ignoramuses who probably just suck up what's on bbc or in the daily mail (OFCOM handcuffed). Of course what you do with that information is up to you. In favour of a full lockdown then? I've told you what I believe all you've done is try and fail to discredit what I've said. A typical social media pandemic response.

There’s that arrogance again.
What I am capable of is listening to the thousands of scientists, epidemiologists, statisticians, hospital administrators et al from all around the World and accepting that they may know more than me and I’m also capable of not taking notice of one person who’s good at Pythagoras’s theory and thinks he knows more than infinitely  more experienced and qualified experts. (Even if they do disagree with each other)
And like all those who have a ‘belief’ your eyes are closed to reason so thee is little point any of us “idiotic  ignoramuses” on here trying to discredit your ‘belief’ as it has little credit anyway.
You clearly ‘believe’ that the small percentage of at risk population should just be abandoned to their fate.  There are 11 murders per 1,000,000 in the U.K. (0.0011% I think but you can work it out better than an idiot) so should we just let murders get on with it and let them carry on as they please? (Reductio ad absurdum, I know)

Still no facts re covid then and then you show me what an idiot you are by comparing covid to murder.

I'm the only one posting some evidence on these boards. And yes I'm posting what I believe to be sensible evidence that supports my considered view and I'm happy to listen to others when they do the same. The fact is you haven't so keep your head in the sand and let the future burn eh.

---

People like Billy are impossible to debate and discuss with

You don't know me so you have no clue what im like to debate with. It would be good if people would post evidence to counter my view. I'm open to it. Trouble is you're not and nobody is apart from.baggy1. Just a murder stat ffs.

---

 "Still no facts" 
I gave you an irrefutable stat to counter your false claim that hospital admissions were at the same level as the last four years. 
You have been asked twice to link the Addenbrookes report you claim backs up your ‘belief’ but haven’t.   The only 50% I can see from them is the fact “studies have shown that PCR tests can miss as many as a half of infected patients five days after infection.” Notice that is MISS the infection NOT give a false positive.
In that same report , dated. 02/09/‘20, They show “there were four false positive results with one test and only one false positive with the second test,” out of 21.  (So that’s 19% & 4.8% respectively. Far from the 50% you erroneously claimed) This report, by the way, was on their success in detecting the virus using two different PCR tests. 
https://www.cuh.nhs.uk/news/combining-pc...ody-tests/
N.B. I have gone back to July on their site to try and find any report from them specifically on false negatives. There isn’t one.
 
The overall mortality rate is 0.66% not 0.3% as you claim and that doesn’t take into account the long term effects, some are suffering, which are now being found.
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1327
 
Re infection rates “Covid May have affected over 10% of the population”. WHO. Stated 05/10/ ‘20. I can find no newer communique giving the figures you allege.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/covid...n-n1242118
 
I countered, with a link, your inaccurate claim that the WHO had, before this pandemic, advised that track and trace was  a “tool never to be used”. You haven’t provided a link to ‘prove’ your claim.
I and others, in this thread alone,  have countered you claims with genuine statistics and figures so please don’t insult us further by saying we haven’t. Even though you do ‘believe’ us to be idiots and ignorant.
 
The murder thing was a metaphor for emphasis FFS. (The Latin means ‘reduction to absurdity’ by the way) You might be “100% certain” regarding differential calculus but clearly Critical English comprehension is not your forte. Perhaps that’s where you’re going wrong with all this scientific reading you’re doing!

Yawn.

---

I agree with your first part of your first statement. But it's not opinion it's about clinical conclusion. There can be no.opinion on peer reviewed science. It gets built on and refined but not on the basis of opinion.

https://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfec...5/fulltext

Currently 2020 is 8th on the list of most excess deaths in the UK in the last 27 years.

I'll say it again because the is a monumental tragedy - and I'm.not talking about Covid - PCR tests will give circa 90% false positives, if you count people with Covid as people dying with Covid you can create a climate of fear, face masks don't work see Argentina and Denver state analysis plus peer reviewed paper 2015, Who report gives infection mortality rate as 0.05% for under 70s.

I could go on. If anyone needs any help understanding this I can help

To help people understand this it needs to be put in context, you haven't defined what is being used here as excess deaths, is it the previous year, is it the 5YA. Also are you comparing last the full 12 month period or the 10 months to date in 2020.

So using the ONS data for annual death figures going back to 1963 and comparing that with the last 12 months figures available (week 41 2019 to week 40 2020), I can only see 4 years with a higher number of deaths in the year (1985, 1979, 1976 and 1972) and each one of these is likely to be passed over the next few weeks as the difference is under 10k for all of them (1976 the only one near 10k).

However and this is the problem, we aren't taking into account populations, health conditions and any unusual factors (1976 was a heatwave IIRC). So the only real basis we can use is recent years and this year has surpassed the number of deaths in every year of the last decade by a minimum of 47k (2018) and a maximum of 104k (2011).

So in summary your figure of there being 7 worse years in the last 27 is rubbish imo.

Happy to be persuaded. Here's the starting analysis I used moved on. A couple of months

https://hectordrummond.com/2020/07/10/ri...-covid-19/

---

 
Hospital admissions are the highest in a decade. Between April and September there were over 300,000 extra admissions compared to last year. This is also against a fall in admissions for elective surgery. So, not sure where you get your “Same as the last four years” from.
For every study you throw up that says general wearing of face masks doesn’t work there are scores which say it does help in reducing the transmission of viruses, Simple cloth masks do not prevent the wearer from catching the virus but it definitely and significantly reduces the chances of the wearer from spreading it through moisture droplets (if worn correctly).
 
Using emotive and highly defamatory terms to accuse certain scientists of “manslaughter” is totally beyond the pale.

So, many on here, with a differing view to you, are “ignorant idiots“ and you condescendingly inform us that if we “care to understand the science” and “If anyone needs any help understanding this (you) can help”. Can you please then, as somebody once said, ‘tell us where you obtained your doctorate in epidemiology’, your degree in statistics and how long you have been a virologist?  Just asking on behalf of all we idiotic ignoramuses. 

You say manslaughter is beyond the pale. Maybe it is. But those in the camp of this is a lethal "disease" stop at all costs mantra are to me completely ignorant of the total costs to what is going on and for that they will be culpable to the future toll their views will have on 99.7% of the population who are not even close to being endangered by this.

I'm not an epidemiologist. My wife works for a big pharma, my son is a biologist, I'm a mathemetician/statistician. Whilst I'm not claiming to be any more than that I've done a hell of a lot of reading over the last 12 weeks on all sides of the debate and I've drawn a conclusion that I'm 100% convinced of. And now thankfully WHO (Iannadis revised down IFR to 0.12-0.2% yesterday) and many eminent others (GBD) are putting info out there to stop this madness.

If you're incapable of even reading around the issues (there are many), start with the PCR test and taking a view that you can promulgate here, then I fear I am in need of trying to help inform idiotic ignoramuses who probably just suck up what's on bbc or in the daily mail (OFCOM handcuffed). Of course what you do with that information is up to you. In favour of a full lockdown then? I've told you what I believe all you've done is try and fail to discredit what I've said. A typical social media pandemic response.

There’s that arrogance again.
What I am capable of is listening to the thousands of scientists, epidemiologists, statisticians, hospital administrators et al from all around the World and accepting that they may know more than me and I’m also capable of not taking notice of one person who’s good at Pythagoras’s theory and thinks he knows more than infinitely  more experienced and qualified experts. (Even if they do disagree with each other)
And like all those who have a ‘belief’ your eyes are closed to reason so thee is little point any of us “idiotic  ignoramuses” on here trying to discredit your ‘belief’ as it has little credit anyway.
You clearly ‘believe’ that the small percentage of at risk population should just be abandoned to their fate.  There are 11 murders per 1,000,000 in the U.K. (0.0011% I think but you can work it out better than an idiot) so should we just let murders get on with it and let them carry on as they please? (Reductio ad absurdum, I know)

Still no facts re covid then and then you show me what an idiot you are by comparing covid to murder.

I'm the only one posting some evidence on these boards. And yes I'm posting what I believe to be sensible evidence that supports my considered view and I'm happy to listen to others when they do the same. The fact is you haven't so keep your head in the sand and let the future burn eh.

---

People like Billy are impossible to debate and discuss with

You don't know me so you have no clue what im like to debate with. It would be good if people would post evidence to counter my view. I'm open to it. Trouble is you're not and nobody is apart from.baggy1. Just a murder stat ffs.

---

 "Still no facts" 
I gave you an irrefutable stat to counter your false claim that hospital admissions were at the same level as the last four years. 
You have been asked twice to link the Addenbrookes report you claim backs up your ‘belief’ but haven’t.   The only 50% I can see from them is the fact “studies have shown that PCR tests can miss as many as a half of infected patients five days after infection.” Notice that is MISS the infection NOT give a false positive.
In that same report , dated. 02/09/‘20, They show “there were four false positive results with one test and only one false positive with the second test,” out of 21.  (So that’s 19% & 4.8% respectively. Far from the 50% you erroneously claimed) This report, by the way, was on their success in detecting the virus using two different PCR tests. 
https://www.cuh.nhs.uk/news/combining-pc...ody-tests/
N.B. I have gone back to July on their site to try and find any report from them specifically on false negatives. There isn’t one.
 
The overall mortality rate is 0.66% not 0.3% as you claim and that doesn’t take into account the long term effects, some are suffering, which are now being found.
https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1327
 
Re infection rates “Covid May have affected over 10% of the population”. WHO. Stated 05/10/ ‘20. I can find no newer communique giving the figures you allege.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/covid...n-n1242118
 
I countered, with a link, your inaccurate claim that the WHO had, before this pandemic, advised that track and trace was  a “tool never to be used”. You haven’t provided a link to ‘prove’ your claim.
I and others, in this thread alone,  have countered you claims with genuine statistics and figures so please don’t insult us further by saying we haven’t. Even though you do ‘believe’ us to be idiots and ignorant.
 
The murder thing was a metaphor for emphasis FFS. (The Latin means ‘reduction to absurdity’ by the way) You might be “100% certain” regarding differential calculus but clearly Critical English comprehension is not your forte. Perhaps that’s where you’re going wrong with all this scientific reading you’re doing!

Oh and I put the.link to.Addenbrooks In a previous message if you actually read my posts.
And that bmj report 0.66 was 1 April 2020. World's moved on Iannidis last week combining 51 global studies was 0.23%

[Fulham Fallout]

Is this shit still going? Foookin’ ‘ell.

[GunsOfNavarone]

Just meet up in a forest somewhere with claw hammers or have a communal socially distanced wank off to see who can spurt the greatest amount of bollocks in the shortest amount of time. I won't be paying to the live link up via YouTube in either event but they may relieve some pent up pressure in both camps. Fuckin' boring thread by the way. Just saying. Stay safe everyone   .

[baggy1]

Happy to be persuaded. Here's the starting analysis I used moved on. A couple of months

https://hectordrummond.com/2020/07/10/ri...-covid-19/

Thanks for that BB and I will look in detail at it when I have a few more minutes and using % of population is a reasonable approach (which I thought it would be) however there is one major flaw to the point made in all that is that it is being compared with winter / springs of each year when we have only had a spring so far (this winter will be the 1st with covid) so I am going to say that, at best, it is too early to say this is a good measure. I will try and work out the same figures with population built in but I suspect strongly that this argument will disappear when we add in the winter coming.

[Fulham Fallout]

I agree with your first part of your first statement. But it's not opinion it's about clinical conclusion. There can be no.opinion on peer reviewed science. It gets built on and refined but not on the basis of opinion.

https://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfec...5/fulltext

Currently 2020 is 8th on the list of most excess deaths in the UK in the last 27 years.

I'll say it again because the is a monumental tragedy - and I'm.not talking about Covid - PCR tests will give circa 90% false positives, if you count people with Covid as people dying with Covid you can create a climate of fear, face masks don't work see Argentina and Denver state analysis plus peer reviewed paper 2015, Who report gives infection mortality rate as 0.05% for under 70s.

I could go on. If anyone needs any help understanding this I can help

To help people understand this it needs to be put in context, you haven't defined what is being used here as excess deaths, is it the previous year, is it the 5YA. Also are you comparing last the full 12 month period or the 10 months to date in 2020.

So using the ONS data for annual death figures going back to 1963 and comparing that with the last 12 months figures available (week 41 2019 to week 40 2020), I can only see 4 years with a higher number of deaths in the year (1985, 1979, 1976 and 1972) and each one of these is likely to be passed over the next few weeks as the difference is under 10k for all of them (1976 the only one near 10k).

However and this is the problem, we aren't taking into account populations, health conditions and any unusual factors (1976 was a heatwave IIRC). So the only real basis we can use is recent years and this year has surpassed the number of deaths in every year of the last decade by a minimum of 47k (2018) and a maximum of 104k (2011).

So in summary your figure of there being 7 worse years in the last 27 is rubbish imo.

Happy to be persuaded. Here's the starting analysis I used moved on. A couple of months

https://hectordrummond.com/2020/07/10/ri...-covid-19/

Thanks for that BB and I will look in detail at it when I have a few more minutes and using % of population is a reasonable approach (which I thought it would be) however there is one major flaw to the point made in all that is that it is being compared with winter / springs of each year when we have only had a spring so far (this winter will be the 1st with covid) so I am going to say that, at best, it is too early to say this is a good measure. I will try and work out the same figures with population built in but I suspect strongly that this argument will disappear when we add in the winter coming.

[Psalm23]

I bet Sol wishes he'd never mentioned his Flu jab now.

[baggy1]

Fuck me the quote function on here has gone completely tits up, looks like FF made my response