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RE: UK Covid death toll - Ted Maul - 12-02-2021
(12-02-2021, 04:07 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote:(12-02-2021, 04:03 PM)Ted Maul Wrote:(12-02-2021, 03:43 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote:(12-02-2021, 03:33 PM)baggiebuckster Wrote: It has been fairly obvious the direction of travel for a long time now. I wish I had a tick sheet for the things that were classed as far fetched a year ago that are now coming to fruition. And yet if you dare mention them then you are shut down instantly.
If/when this happens here, this is a level of state control that we have not seen in our lifetime.
Since the middle of July I've been able to do pretty much whatever I please. So much for that state control.
Can't say I understand your point there. I said "if/when it happens here", and I was referring to what's happening in Germany/Austria/Greece as discussed.
I've followed the advice of medical experts, had my jabs and therefore will continue doing what I want.
Problem?
RE: UK Covid death toll - baggy1 - 12-02-2021
You all seem to have missed the big point because it doesn't suit your view I guess. The reason we, in the UK, are not facing the measures is because we have such a high take up on vaccinations, other countries are looking at our take up and realising that they need to do something because the reality is that vaccinations have the desired effect.
If you look at cases at the moment in the UK (and I know I say not to but for the point) they are around 42k on a 7 day average. Compare this with the peak last year when the peak on 7DAs was around 58k - we are currently running at about 75% of cases compared to the peak. Then look at hospitalisations which are currently at just less than 6k compare that to the peak of 32k it shows us running at less than 20%. This shows one massive point in that vaccinations work and are the reason why covid is not taking off in the UK compared with the central European countries.
Those countries now realise the only way out of this is through vaccination and as there isn't enough uptake then they can either do nothing and let it run riot and kill 10s of thousands or mandate it. There really aren't any other options short of locking down everyone and damaging the economy.
Now I hope I'm not speaking too soon but we are not looking at the same problems because we have the high take up, but it is not a time to think we have done enough we need to continue with the take up and not relax.
RE: UK Covid death toll - backsidebaggie - 12-02-2021
(12-02-2021, 04:08 PM)Ted Maul Wrote:(12-02-2021, 04:07 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote:(12-02-2021, 04:03 PM)Ted Maul Wrote:(12-02-2021, 03:43 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote:(12-02-2021, 03:33 PM)baggiebuckster Wrote: It has been fairly obvious the direction of travel for a long time now. I wish I had a tick sheet for the things that were classed as far fetched a year ago that are now coming to fruition. And yet if you dare mention them then you are shut down instantly.
If/when this happens here, this is a level of state control that we have not seen in our lifetime.
Since the middle of July I've been able to do pretty much whatever I please. So much for that state control.
Can't say I understand your point there. I said "if/when it happens here", and I was referring to what's happening in Germany/Austria/Greece as discussed.
I've followed the advice of medical experts, had my jabs and therefore will continue doing what I want.
Problem?
Not sure what you mean by "Problem?". We were talking about the path to mandation.
If you're happy to do exactly what the government and medical experts say, with no choice for yourself, then yes you'll be fine (presuming you don't get one of the rare severe reactions).
If you can't see the wider problems this causes, and the infinite things this could be applied to which experts in any particular field decide is necessary to also be mandated, then I hope you're good for other future things that the experts say are required to also be mandated.
(12-02-2021, 04:15 PM)baggy1 Wrote: You all seem to have missed the big point because it doesn't suit your view I guess. The reason we, in the UK, are not facing the measures is because we have such a high take up on vaccinations, other countries are looking at our take up and realising that they need to do something because the reality is that vaccinations have the desired effect.
If you look at cases at the moment in the UK (and I know I say not to but for the point) they are around 42k on a 7 day average. Compare this with the peak last year when the peak on 7DAs was around 58k - we are currently running at about 75% of cases compared to the peak. Then look at hospitalisations which are currently at just less than 6k compare that to the peak of 32k it shows us running at less than 20%. This shows one massive point in that vaccinations work and are the reason why covid is not taking off in the UK compared with the central European countries.
Those countries now realise the only way out of this is through vaccination and as there isn't enough uptake then they can either do nothing and let it run riot and kill 10s of thousands or mandate it.
Now I hope I'm not speaking too soon but we are not looking at the same problems because we have the high take up, but it is not a time to think we have done enough we need to continue with the take up and not relax.
I admire your optimism Baggy1. And your statistical analysis is genuinely excellent - I mean that.
It will happen here, they will wait for a surge, then justify it based on that, blaming the unvaccinated, having successfully divided the population into two.
I really really hope I'm wrong, but the pattern has formed over 6-9 months now. Its not a conspiracy theory.
RE: UK Covid death toll - Tom Joad - 12-02-2021
I finally met up with a guy I knocked about with some years ago. I heard he'd gone Anti vax and it wasn't a total surprise. A decent enough guy, he has always loved his conspiracies. We disagreed amicably on the subject but I could not get a sensible argument from him.
Re masks, I asked where the harm is in making others feel a bit more safe? No real answer other than some garbled thing about muzzles.
Re the vaccine. I asked him the difference between this time last year (widespread cases reported and heading into lengthy lockdown), and this year (widespread cases reported, everything open with no apparent closures imminent)? This led to a speech about "sheeples", "they"- they appeared a lot during the conversation, plus all the people that have apparently been killed or maimed by the vaccines (apparently they are ALL dangerous). Further he went on to tell me Covid is the same as a cold and it can easily be cured by a medicine called Ivermectine. I couldn't argue with that last one so I googled it when I got home. Worrying!
I have a fairly open mind so wanted to hear the counter argument but there really wasn't one. One thing I will add though. This guy, and his friends, have been on pretty much every "Freedom" march possible since the start of this. While I don't wish harm on any of them, they haven't caught a bloody sniffle! Work that out!
RE: UK Covid death toll - Ted Maul - 12-02-2021
(12-02-2021, 04:17 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote:(12-02-2021, 04:08 PM)Ted Maul Wrote:(12-02-2021, 04:07 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote:(12-02-2021, 04:03 PM)Ted Maul Wrote:(12-02-2021, 03:43 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote: If/when this happens here, this is a level of state control that we have not seen in our lifetime.
Since the middle of July I've been able to do pretty much whatever I please. So much for that state control.
Can't say I understand your point there. I said "if/when it happens here", and I was referring to what's happening in Germany/Austria/Greece as discussed.
I've followed the advice of medical experts, had my jabs and therefore will continue doing what I want.
Problem?
Not sure what you mean by "Problem?". We were talking about the path to mandation.
If you're happy to do exactly what the government and medical experts say, with no choice for yourself, then yes you'll be fine (presuming you don't get one of the rare severe reactions).
If you can't see the wider problems this causes, and the infinite things this could be applied to which experts in any particular field decide is necessary to also be mandated, then I hope you're good for other future things that the experts say are required to also be mandated.
B1 summed it up perfectly. It's been developed by some of the worlds leading scientists and has preventing thousands of deaths worldwide. It's good enough for me.
For all this talk of things being mandated in the future, can anyone shine a light on what is to be gained by anyone doing this? If in future there is another pandemic, that requires us to be vaccinated against then I'll have that jab as well. If the leaders and the experts were in the habit of mandating medical procedures or whatever it would have happened a long time before now. How is it any different to needing a jab to visit certain holiday desitnations?
Experts are experts for a reason. What sort of evil will they force upon us next... demand I make my house more environmentally friendly, clean up my diet, stop smoking? How will we cope.
RE: UK Covid death toll - baggy1 - 12-02-2021
The reason I'm confident we won't be facing a surge in hospitalisations like last year (we will see an increase I'm certain) is the starting point we are at. At this point last year there were already over 13k in hospital and the growth was around 1.2 per week. At the moment we have less than half of that and even with the same growth rate it would take us until February to reach those heights. Add into that the vast numbers that are vaccinated and you can see why November 2020 was running at c1.2 and we are currently running at c.1 and have been for months. The only differentiator this year will be the less likely event of being locked down which kept a lid on numbers last year.
RE: UK Covid death toll - backsidebaggie - 12-02-2021
(12-02-2021, 04:23 PM)Tom Joad Wrote: I finally met up with a guy I knocked about with some years ago. I heard he'd gone Anti vax and it wasn't a total surprise. A decent enough guy, he has always loved his conspiracies. We disagreed amicably on the subject but I could not get a sensible argument from him.
Re masks, I asked where the harm is in making others feel a bit more safe? No real answer other than some garbled thing about muzzles.
Re the vaccine. I asked him the difference between this time last year (widespread cases reported and heading into lengthy lockdown), and this year (widespread cases reported, everything open with no apparent closures imminent)? This led to a speech about "sheeples", "they"- they appeared a lot during the conversation, plus all the people that have apparently been killed or maimed by the vaccines (apparently they are ALL dangerous). Further he went on to tell me Covid is the same as a cold and it can easily be cured by a medicine called Ivermectine. I couldn't argue with that last one so I googled it when I got home. Worrying!
I have a fairly open mind so wanted to hear the counter argument but there really wasn't one. One thing I will add though. This guy, and his friends, have been on pretty much every "Freedom" march possible since the start of this. While I don't wish harm on any of them, they haven't caught a bloody sniffle! Work that out!
When you say he's gone anti-vax, do you mean all vaccines, or just covid? Is he 'anti' them, or just believe in personal choice and weighing up each one on your own circumstances?
(I definitely believe they protect against severe illness, but I still believe in personal choice and totally understand young healthy people not getting it).
What I would say is, the 'freedom marches' were being heavily mocked as we were not under any restrictions, so what were they marching for? But to be fair they said the things now happening in Germany and Austria would happen here. So if they do, they had a point and called it early.
(12-02-2021, 04:24 PM)Ted Maul Wrote:(12-02-2021, 04:17 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote:(12-02-2021, 04:08 PM)Ted Maul Wrote:(12-02-2021, 04:07 PM)backsidebaggie Wrote:(12-02-2021, 04:03 PM)Ted Maul Wrote: Since the middle of July I've been able to do pretty much whatever I please. So much for that state control.
Can't say I understand your point there. I said "if/when it happens here", and I was referring to what's happening in Germany/Austria/Greece as discussed.
I've followed the advice of medical experts, had my jabs and therefore will continue doing what I want.
Problem?
Not sure what you mean by "Problem?". We were talking about the path to mandation.
If you're happy to do exactly what the government and medical experts say, with no choice for yourself, then yes you'll be fine (presuming you don't get one of the rare severe reactions).
If you can't see the wider problems this causes, and the infinite things this could be applied to which experts in any particular field decide is necessary to also be mandated, then I hope you're good for other future things that the experts say are required to also be mandated.
B1 summed it up perfectly. It's been developed by some of the worlds leading scientists and has preventing thousands of deaths worldwide. It's good enough for me.
For all this talk of things being mandated in the future, can anyone shine a light on what is to be gained by anyone doing this? If in future there is another pandemic, that requires us to be vaccinated against then I'll have that jab as well. If the leaders and the experts were in the habit of mandating medical procedures or whatever it would have happened a long time before now. How is it any different to needing a jab to visit certain holiday desitnations?
Experts are experts for a reason. What sort of evil will they force upon us next... demand I make my house more environmentally friendly, clean up my diet, stop smoking? How will we cope.
Not being able to visit the odd holiday destination is not the same as being fined, imprisoned, not being able to work, being locked down. Just a slight difference!!
Experts are experts, but should policies be totally determined by them? They are experts in a field, but are they experts on knock on effects? What are the knock on effects of a mandation? There's plenty!
Now, I'll throw a totally hypothetical situation out there:
Say someone does 10,000 miles in a car a year. They do many of those miles going to see their elderly family on weekends who live out in the sticks. The experts decide that due to climate change, every individual can do max 3000 miles. That's it. Its a climate emergency. Max 3000 miles a year, per person. We can't argue. They're experts. There's no way any of us can argue with their science. Its "the science".
This severely limits that person's quality of life with their family. They can't see them very often. There's no way they can do public transport due to the area of the country their parents live. It would be a ridiculous journey or bus/train/change train/bus/bus, and the times make it impossible as this person travels after working long hours and has to travel late Saturday and come back Sunday night.
But that's it. The expert says its required to get to net zero. So no questions, put up with it. One word against it, and that person gets called a "climate denier". Its required, there's definitely a climate emergency, no one can argue with that. So that's it, if the expert in THAT field says its required, its required. You can only see the family 10 times a year instead of every saturday night/sunday. The experts said so. Disagree and you're a "climate change denier". This is what is happening RIGHT NOW with vaccines. There are about half a million true anti vax people in the uk. Covid propaganda has ensured that's now 5 million. Even though the vast majority have taken tons of vaccines, and still would. I must also be a vegetarian because I don't eat rabbit according to this logic.
That the kind of world you want to live in? This is where I talk about the bigger picture.
I'm not arguing with the vaccine scientists. But is the expert on viruses also an expert on social and economic effects of mandation? An expert on effects of segregation? A behavioural expert? Will crime go up? Will people in poverty be more effected? Ethnic minorities? Are they experts on all this? Or are they experts on just the vaccines? Therefore is there more to it than simply following experts? In addition, are the experts compromised by money? 'Follow the money' is always a good idea. Do you trust the government experts to be absolutely 100% true to science and not be affected by financial gain?
I have to admit, the lack of seeing the bigger picture here absolutely fucking staggers me. I'm dumbfounded.
RE: UK Covid death toll - Tom Joad - 12-02-2021
backsidebaggie Wrote:Tom Joad Wrote:I finally met up with a guy I knocked about with some years ago. I heard he'd gone Anti vax and it wasn't a total surprise. A decent enough guy, he has always loved his conspiracies. We disagreed amicably on the subject but I could not get a sensible argument from him.
Re masks, I asked where the harm is in making others feel a bit more safe? No real answer other than some garbled thing about muzzles.
Re the vaccine. I asked him the difference between this time last year (widespread cases reported and heading into lengthy lockdown), and this year (widespread cases reported, everything open with no apparent closures imminent)? This led to a speech about "sheeples", "they"- they appeared a lot during the conversation, plus all the people that have apparently been killed or maimed by the vaccines (apparently they are ALL dangerous). Further he went on to tell me Covid is the same as a cold and it can easily be cured by a medicine called Ivermectine. I couldn't argue with that last one so I googled it when I got home. Worrying!
I have a fairly open mind so wanted to hear the counter argument but there really wasn't one. One thing I will add though. This guy, and his friends, have been on pretty much every "Freedom" march possible since the start of this. While I don't wish harm on any of them, they haven't caught a bloody sniffle! Work that out!
When you say he's gone anti-vax, do you mean all vaccines, or just covid? Is he 'anti' them, or just believe in personal choice and weighing up each one on your own circumstances?
(I definitely believe they protect against severe illness, but I still believe in personal choice and totally understand young healthy people not getting it).
What I would say is, the 'freedom marches' were being heavily mocked as we were not under any restrictions, so what were they marching for? But to be fair they said the things now happening in Germany and Austria would happen here. So if they do, they had a point and called it early.
Nah, all of 'em. He is the ultimate example of a conspiracy theorist, David Icke, lizards, Hilary Clinton running a paedophile ring below the cobblers. Amazingly though, he's always been good company! Holds down a job, his wife believes just the same, he's a grandad. I'm baffled.
RE: UK Covid death toll - backsidebaggie - 12-02-2021
(12-02-2021, 04:47 PM)Tom Joad Wrote:backsidebaggie Wrote:Tom Joad Wrote:I finally met up with a guy I knocked about with some years ago. I heard he'd gone Anti vax and it wasn't a total surprise. A decent enough guy, he has always loved his conspiracies. We disagreed amicably on the subject but I could not get a sensible argument from him.
Re masks, I asked where the harm is in making others feel a bit more safe? No real answer other than some garbled thing about muzzles.
Re the vaccine. I asked him the difference between this time last year (widespread cases reported and heading into lengthy lockdown), and this year (widespread cases reported, everything open with no apparent closures imminent)? This led to a speech about "sheeples", "they"- they appeared a lot during the conversation, plus all the people that have apparently been killed or maimed by the vaccines (apparently they are ALL dangerous). Further he went on to tell me Covid is the same as a cold and it can easily be cured by a medicine called Ivermectine. I couldn't argue with that last one so I googled it when I got home. Worrying!
I have a fairly open mind so wanted to hear the counter argument but there really wasn't one. One thing I will add though. This guy, and his friends, have been on pretty much every "Freedom" march possible since the start of this. While I don't wish harm on any of them, they haven't caught a bloody sniffle! Work that out!
When you say he's gone anti-vax, do you mean all vaccines, or just covid? Is he 'anti' them, or just believe in personal choice and weighing up each one on your own circumstances?
(I definitely believe they protect against severe illness, but I still believe in personal choice and totally understand young healthy people not getting it).
What I would say is, the 'freedom marches' were being heavily mocked as we were not under any restrictions, so what were they marching for? But to be fair they said the things now happening in Germany and Austria would happen here. So if they do, they had a point and called it early.
Nah, all of 'em. He is the ultimate example of a conspiracy theorist, David Icke, lizards, Hilary Clinton running a paedophile ring below the cobblers. Amazingly though, he's always been good company! Holds down a job, his wife believes just the same, he's a grandad. I'm baffled.
I do think that this sort of thing comes from major distrust of governments, and the constant lies actually serve to increase this. I don't believe any of those things, but i will be lumped in with them just for believing in personal choice - that's the situation that's been created. And I am as sure as hell that most who don't want the covid jab don't believe them either. they've just weighed things up, and particularly for the young, decided against it.
I also heard some say nearly 12 months ago they wanted to see what they were "signing up to". The fact it looks like jabs 4 and 5 are coming vindicates them. Its looking like one a year or second class citizen. Or in Greece and Austria, they'll be bankrupted instead. fucking hell!
RE: UK Covid death toll - baggiebuckster - 12-02-2021
So are you saying everyone is either pro Vax and follows the experts like you do or a complete anti vaxxer like your mate?
The majority of people against these mandates are at neither end of that scale.