The Better Alternative in 2019
#51
(08-05-2022, 01:31 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(08-05-2022, 01:06 PM)Ted Maul Wrote: People in places like Dudley etc were told their shit lives (no fault of the EU) would be made better if we voted to leave the EU. Not much blame should lie with those who voted for it for me. A good chunk of those who voted remain then spent a couple of years telling those who voted for Brexit that they were stupid and trying to reverse their decision. It's not hard to see why those who voted for Brexit, for whatever reason were keen to see it done. The Labour party only have themselves to blame for abandoning it's traditional voter base in 'Red Wall', predominantly Brexit voting areas. 

I say all this as a former Labour party member who voted to remain in the EU.

How were people with "shit lives" told their lives would be better exactly? I'm curious because I campaigned and voted to leave an undemocratic and sclerotic political bloc.

As it is, the vast majority of us will notice no difference in or out of the the EU, and the effects of real issues like Covid, Covid Recovery, Ukraine and Chinese sabre rattling show Brexit up, comparatively, for what it actually is - Barely discernable minor disruption which will lessen over time.

I agree with the rest of your post btw.

For a start can you remember the front page of the E&S that was showing a poll of around 2/3 people citing immigration as the key Brexit issue? It's a pretty easy path to follow.

Can't get a doctors appointment > Too many people > Too much immigration > Why can't we 'control' immigration? > It's the EU's fault.

Dare I mention the big red bus?

People we massively dissatisfied with their lot. The Brexit vote offered something different. Why do you think any narrative concerning "the elite" or "typical London types" remains so popular, people are still miserable (probably more so) and want/wanted a change. Brexit offered them this, whether you could see the obvious differences to day-to-day life or not.

(08-05-2022, 01:44 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Some big assumptions being made here. I know plenty of people who live in Red Wall areas who are working class and voted remain and they are pissed off that their opinions have been completely marginalised because they are in the minority. What olive branch has been given to those who wanted to stay in the EU? What conciliatory language has been used? Their incomes have stagnated or gone backwards every bit as much as those who voted to leave. The reason Brexit is still an issue is because it doesn’t work, it was and is akin to inflicting economic and social sanctions on ourselves. If people can’t be honest about this, then we will never be able to address it. We now have people trying to argue that Brexit wasn’t done properly and if it was, we would be fine but the whole problem with that is no one agrees what better means. If you’re going to argue this Conservative party is least worse for Red Wall voters I complete disagree and wonder what possible rationale there is for that opinion given the mountain of evidence to the contrary of the past 13yrs.

Protheroe

There is no denying Brexit has made things worse, it's obvious. However all of these problems as you outlined in an earlier post existed pre-2016.

The 2017 Labour manifesto outlined a plan to honour the result of the referendum, whether that was Brexit in name only, it would have sufficed for a lot of the voters who turned on them in 2019.

From what I see from both Labour and the Tories at the moment, you can get a fag paper between them. Starmer seems to be quickly forgetting the founding principles of the Labour movement and who it stands for, you only have to look to his recent treatment of Sam Tarry for that.
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#52
(08-05-2022, 01:53 PM)Ted Maul Wrote: There is no denying Brexit has made things worse, it's obvious. However all of these problems as you outlined in an earlier post existed pre-2016.

Your latter point is entirely correct, most wage, productivity and growth issues hark back to a hangover from policy decisions founded in 2008 (and continued since) which, thankfully, a recession may now sort out. 

Can you explain which "things" Brexit has made worse for traditional Labour voters in Red Wall areas?
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#53
Cost of goods through exchange rate weakening and import costs. Holidays (I know it’s hard to believe but working class people go abroad as well) through the exchange rate weakening. Opportunity to find work in Europe if there isn’t suitable jobs for them locally. There’s 3 to start with.
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