Tory leadership contest thread
(07-22-2022, 10:58 AM)Protheroe Wrote: I'm saying that your daily protestations that the Tory party is in thrall to the "extreme right wing" are pathetic and juvenile. I'm saying that your suggestion that Britain First has any sway over the Tory Party is fatuous nonsense. I didn't hear you pipe up much when a temporarily lapsed member of the Communist Party of Great Britain was Corbyn's key advisor, and I don't believe you'll have found me then seriously suggesting that Labour would bring back the gulags - even under that twat.

Calm the fuck down and look at the outcomes. We currently have a centrist big state government. We'll also have a centrist big state government on 2nd September whoever wins this mockery of an election.

Face it, you and your big tax big state friends won.

And I hope Steve Baker gives Liz Truss some guidance, by Christ she needs it.

Stick to the questions I asked. The points I’m making aren’t conspiracies, when you have the likes of Chris Patten and Peter Oborne saying pretty much what I have then I believe they and I have a point. Your idea of a small state is completely flawed by the reality of needing good social care, health, education etc. You never say how you would deal with these things that wouldn’t have a huge detrimental affect on peoples lives and standard of living.
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The flaw in your argument is that we have the biggest state in our history - and health, education and social care outcomes are generally risible - particularly for those who can't afford to opt out or buy a home in a decent catchment. You want more of the same as it's impossible for you to countenance that the funding and delivery mechanisms that worked in the 1940s are no longer fit for purpose. It displays a striking lack of imagination.

And I notice you've pivoted away from your ridiculous assertions about the "extreme right wing" for a moment.
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(07-22-2022, 12:41 PM)Protheroe Wrote: The flaw in your argument is that we have the biggest state in our history - and health, education and social care outcomes are generally risible - particularly for those who can't afford to opt out or buy a home in a decent catchment. You want more of the same as it's impossible for you to countenance that the funding and delivery mechanisms that worked in the 1940s are no longer fit for purpose. It displays a striking lack of imagination.

And I notice you've pivoted away from your ridiculous assertions about the "extreme right wing" for a moment.

Not at all. The flaw is those running it for the past 12 years you know the ones you campaigned for and said things would be better under presumably?  

Crime figures were never as bad as they are now, or waiting times for operations and ambulances, food banks hadn’t exploded, social care wasn’t as bad, we weren’t ploughing food back into the ground through a lack of workers. I’m sure I’ve missed a lot out, but previous to your parties running of the country things were a lot better.
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(07-22-2022, 01:20 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: the ones you campaigned for and said things would be better under presumably?  

That's a big presumption. 

As a (former) eternal optimist I'd hoped that the Tories may undertake the necessary reform of funding and delivery necessary for modern fit for purpose health, social care and education. As it is they haven't.  That's not an opinion, it's a statement of fact.

We might as well have voted for #chaoswithEdMiliband for all the public sector reform there hasn't been.
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(07-22-2022, 01:54 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-22-2022, 01:20 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: the ones you campaigned for and said things would be better under presumably?  

That's a big presumption. 

As a (former) eternal optimist I'd hoped that the Tories may undertake the necessary reform of funding and delivery necessary for modern fit for purpose health, social care and education. As it is they haven't.  That's not an opinion, it's a statement of fact.

We might as well have voted for #chaoswithEdMiliband for all the public sector reform there hasn't been.

The glaring problem with this is nothing was really broken. It is now. You promised firemen they ended up being arsonists.
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If you believe nothing was really broken prior to 2010 then there’s really no point continuing the conversation. The main problems we face in this country are 25 to 40 years in the making.
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(07-22-2022, 10:20 PM)Protheroe Wrote: If you believe nothing was really broken prior to 2010 then there’s really no point continuing the conversation. The main problems we face in this country are 25 to 40 years in the making.

You'll hate me saying it, but Thatcher started a lot of the issues we now face. 

I say this as someone who is idealogical quite close to Thatcher, at least, the ideals, not what was actually done.
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(07-22-2022, 05:03 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(07-22-2022, 01:54 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-22-2022, 01:20 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: the ones you campaigned for and said things would be better under presumably?  

That's a big presumption. 

As a (former) eternal optimist I'd hoped that the Tories may undertake the necessary reform of funding and delivery necessary for modern fit for purpose health, social care and education. As it is they haven't.  That's not an opinion, it's a statement of fact.

We might as well have voted for #chaoswithEdMiliband for all the public sector reform there hasn't been.

The glaring problem with this is nothing was really broken. It is now. You promised firemen they ended up being arsonists.

Satisfaction in the NHS was good 
Waiting times were manageable 
Staffing wasn’t a problem 
A handful relatively speaking of food banks 
Education was decent
Can’t remember hours of delays for ambulances 
We hadn’t shot ourselves in the foot with Brexit 
We didn’t have crime statistics as woeful as we have now and actually saw Police in communities

Yes things could always be better and there were some problems but please don’t insult peoples intelligence that we were in anywhere near the mess we are now.
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