Second referendum
#81
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#82
(02-27-2019, 12:04 PM)Beano Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 10:57 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 10:51 AM)cornishbaggie Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 09:23 AM)baggy1 Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 08:35 AM)cornishbaggie Wrote: I sense you are keen on questions, so please allow me a few, what happens to the 17.4 million when they are told their votes are null and void. When the losers referendum is held, what is the criteria, will it be the best of three, best of five. Will we be told " it's only this time your vote won't count, it will every other, honest ". Now that politicians are ignoring a vote and proceeding how they want, isn't that a dictatorship. What are the masses next steps, now they know democracy is denied them, the last time anyone were denied votes in the UK was Northern Ireland, that went well.

No problems Cornish.

The votes aren't null and void, in the same way that any election / referendum votes aren't. The vote to stay in the EEC in 1975 aren't void because we have voted to leave now, circumstances have changed. The votes to elect Theresa May's government won't be null and void at the next election, we have simply seen it was the wrong thing to vote for with the benefit of hindsight.

And let's not get hung up on the 17.4 million, I would say that there are a fair few of those that with hindsight can see it isn't a very good idea in practice rather than the theory. Also there were 16.1 million voters that voted to remain and have watched the car crash of the last couple of years unfolding predictably in amazement.

The argument that we've voted and it must be upheld for democracy doesn't hold water based on a simple fact - people change their mind, and when they can see no benefit to following something through logic would dictate that they stop and turn around.

This really is as simple as that, people voted for leave, it turns out it's a really shit idea and has no benefits, so let's rethink the situation and ask again now that we know more. That is democracy in action - not a denial of democracy.

Now - seeing as I have answered your questions. Can I ask again for you to give me one benefit to the country, the economy, our job prospects, our children's futures, or absolutely anything by leaving.

I'm afraid you haven't, you have just repeated the oft used mantra " you didn't know what you were doing " so we go again, but you know we get it, before the vote anyone voicing concerns on immigration, were racist, anyone with concerns on the EU were little englanders, you don't think any of this comes as a surprise to anyone that voted leave, we are used to being shut up, so we are just now waiting for the ultimate putdown to shut us up. If and when it happens, politicians will never be trusted again, I am confident that remain will win the losers referendum because I know of so many people that voted leave, will never put cross to paper again including me.

What negative effect did immigration have on Cornwall?

Not sure about Cornwall in particular, but I think you will find that many areas that relied on seasonal work have
seen huge challenges in opportunity following the arrival of so many Eastern European folks seeking work. That
is good and bad I suppose. Good if you run a business and want to keep costs down whilst increasing unsocial
hours, bad if your a local dependant on such work to avoid being trapped on Welfare.

It is not the fault of the East Europeans, they just want to better themselves but to believe that comes without
consequences for pay and conditions is delusional.

Absolutely. Here's one potential benefit from leaving the EU - the pressure on our services is huge at the moment - certainly throughout east anglia. If we can better control immigration then that's a straightforward benefit. When you have a family of 4 coming here with just one parent working for around minimum wage and the family claiming the benefits they are entitled too, how much tax does the govt and local council collect to offset those costs? We do need immigration of course but having better control of it would be a benefit. 

We have heard a lot of debate about security, well for the future; Germany will be in the pocket of Russia for its energy supply so I wonder how this might affect the european union and any policies going forwards, coupled with their ideal of a European army  - will we be able to go to war to protect a member of the Commonwealth in the future or will we be subject to asking permission from the EU? For me that's where our potential loss of sovereignty is. 

And most certainly i am no economist, but my best mate is and has lectured on the subject at universities. He also happens to be Polish and has lived in the UK for awhile and he believes we should vote out. He chose not to vote in the referendum because he didn't think it fair only having lived here for 10 years!!
Reply
#83
(03-16-2019, 08:11 PM)FenlandBoing Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 12:04 PM)Beano Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 10:57 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 10:51 AM)cornishbaggie Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 09:23 AM)baggy1 Wrote: No problems Cornish.

The votes aren't null and void, in the same way that any election / referendum votes aren't. The vote to stay in the EEC in 1975 aren't void because we have voted to leave now, circumstances have changed. The votes to elect Theresa May's government won't be null and void at the next election, we have simply seen it was the wrong thing to vote for with the benefit of hindsight.

And let's not get hung up on the 17.4 million, I would say that there are a fair few of those that with hindsight can see it isn't a very good idea in practice rather than the theory. Also there were 16.1 million voters that voted to remain and have watched the car crash of the last couple of years unfolding predictably in amazement.

The argument that we've voted and it must be upheld for democracy doesn't hold water based on a simple fact - people change their mind, and when they can see no benefit to following something through logic would dictate that they stop and turn around.

This really is as simple as that, people voted for leave, it turns out it's a really shit idea and has no benefits, so let's rethink the situation and ask again now that we know more. That is democracy in action - not a denial of democracy.

Now - seeing as I have answered your questions. Can I ask again for you to give me one benefit to the country, the economy, our job prospects, our children's futures, or absolutely anything by leaving.

I'm afraid you haven't, you have just repeated the oft used mantra " you didn't know what you were doing " so we go again, but you know we get it, before the vote anyone voicing concerns on immigration, were racist, anyone with concerns on the EU were little englanders, you don't think any of this comes as a surprise to anyone that voted leave, we are used to being shut up, so we are just now waiting for the ultimate putdown to shut us up. If and when it happens, politicians will never be trusted again, I am confident that remain will win the losers referendum because I know of so many people that voted leave, will never put cross to paper again including me.

What negative effect did immigration have on Cornwall?

Not sure about Cornwall in particular, but I think you will find that many areas that relied on seasonal work have
seen huge challenges in opportunity following the arrival of so many Eastern European folks seeking work. That
is good and bad I suppose. Good if you run a business and want to keep costs down whilst increasing unsocial
hours, bad if your a local dependant on such work to avoid being trapped on Welfare.

It is not the fault of the East Europeans, they just want to better themselves but to believe that comes without
consequences for pay and conditions is delusional.

Absolutely. Here's one potential benefit from leaving the EU - the pressure on our services is huge at the moment - certainly throughout east anglia. If we can better control immigration then that's a straightforward benefit. When you have a family of 4 coming here with just one parent working for around minimum wage and the family claiming the benefits they are entitled too, how much tax does the govt and local council collect to offset those costs? We do need immigration of course but having better control of it would be a benefit. 

We have heard a lot of debate about security, well for the future; Germany will be in the pocket of Russia for its energy supply so I wonder how this might affect the european union and any policies going forwards, coupled with their ideal of a European army  - will we be able to go to war to protect a member of the Commonwealth in the future or will we be subject to asking permission from the EU? For me that's where our potential loss of sovereignty is. 

And most certainly i am no economist, but my best mate is and has lectured on the subject at universities. He also happens to be Polish and has lived in the UK for awhile and he believes we should vote out. He chose not to vote in the referendum because he didn't think it fair only having lived here for 10 years!!

EU immigrants contribute more per capita than British born citizens and even the pro-Brexit economists predicted significant damage to industry, manufacturing and local economies outside of London. We also didn't use the immigration controls already available such as restrictions on the use of government services for those without a job. Council funding cuts are directly caused by the UK government and are the biggest burden on local councils.

Plus the European Army requires Denmark, the Netherlands and the Irish to agree to it which are all against it, also excluding our veto. Germany is also in fucking NATO, as is France.
Reply
#84
(03-16-2019, 10:34 PM)Borin\ Baggie Wrote:
(03-16-2019, 08:11 PM)FenlandBoing Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 12:04 PM)Beano Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 10:57 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 10:51 AM)cornishbaggie Wrote: I'm afraid you haven't, you have just repeated the oft used mantra " you didn't know what you were doing " so we go again, but you know we get it, before the vote anyone voicing concerns on immigration, were racist, anyone with concerns on the EU were little englanders, you don't think any of this comes as a surprise to anyone that voted leave, we are used to being shut up, so we are just now waiting for the ultimate putdown to shut us up. If and when it happens, politicians will never be trusted again, I am confident that remain will win the losers referendum because I know of so many people that voted leave, will never put cross to paper again including me.

What negative effect did immigration have on Cornwall?

Not sure about Cornwall in particular, but I think you will find that many areas that relied on seasonal work have
seen huge challenges in opportunity following the arrival of so many Eastern European folks seeking work. That
is good and bad I suppose. Good if you run a business and want to keep costs down whilst increasing unsocial
hours, bad if your a local dependant on such work to avoid being trapped on Welfare.

It is not the fault of the East Europeans, they just want to better themselves but to believe that comes without
consequences for pay and conditions is delusional.

Absolutely. Here's one potential benefit from leaving the EU - the pressure on our services is huge at the moment - certainly throughout east anglia. If we can better control immigration then that's a straightforward benefit. When you have a family of 4 coming here with just one parent working for around minimum wage and the family claiming the benefits they are entitled too, how much tax does the govt and local council collect to offset those costs? We do need immigration of course but having better control of it would be a benefit. 

We have heard a lot of debate about security, well for the future; Germany will be in the pocket of Russia for its energy supply so I wonder how this might affect the european union and any policies going forwards, coupled with their ideal of a European army  - will we be able to go to war to protect a member of the Commonwealth in the future or will we be subject to asking permission from the EU? For me that's where our potential loss of sovereignty is. 

And most certainly i am no economist, but my best mate is and has lectured on the subject at universities. He also happens to be Polish and has lived in the UK for awhile and he believes we should vote out. He chose not to vote in the referendum because he didn't think it fair only having lived here for 10 years!!

EU immigrants contribute more per capita than British born citizens and even the pro-Brexit economists predicted significant damage to industry, manufacturing and local economies outside of London. We also didn't use the immigration controls already available such as restrictions on the use of government services for those without a job. Council funding cuts are directly caused by the UK government and are the biggest burden on local councils.

Plus the European Army requires Denmark, the Netherlands and the Irish to agree to it which are all against it, also excluding our veto. Germany is also in fucking NATO, as is France.

Sorry but your opening first statement is clearly bollocks.
Reply
#85
(03-17-2019, 09:31 AM)SausEggBaton Wrote:
(03-16-2019, 10:34 PM)Borin\ Baggie Wrote:
(03-16-2019, 08:11 PM)FenlandBoing Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 12:04 PM)Beano Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 10:57 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: What negative effect did immigration have on Cornwall?

Not sure about Cornwall in particular, but I think you will find that many areas that relied on seasonal work have
seen huge challenges in opportunity following the arrival of so many Eastern European folks seeking work. That
is good and bad I suppose. Good if you run a business and want to keep costs down whilst increasing unsocial
hours, bad if your a local dependant on such work to avoid being trapped on Welfare.

It is not the fault of the East Europeans, they just want to better themselves but to believe that comes without
consequences for pay and conditions is delusional.

Absolutely. Here's one potential benefit from leaving the EU - the pressure on our services is huge at the moment - certainly throughout east anglia. If we can better control immigration then that's a straightforward benefit. When you have a family of 4 coming here with just one parent working for around minimum wage and the family claiming the benefits they are entitled too, how much tax does the govt and local council collect to offset those costs? We do need immigration of course but having better control of it would be a benefit. 

We have heard a lot of debate about security, well for the future; Germany will be in the pocket of Russia for its energy supply so I wonder how this might affect the european union and any policies going forwards, coupled with their ideal of a European army  - will we be able to go to war to protect a member of the Commonwealth in the future or will we be subject to asking permission from the EU? For me that's where our potential loss of sovereignty is. 

And most certainly i am no economist, but my best mate is and has lectured on the subject at universities. He also happens to be Polish and has lived in the UK for awhile and he believes we should vote out. He chose not to vote in the referendum because he didn't think it fair only having lived here for 10 years!!

EU immigrants contribute more per capita than British born citizens and even the pro-Brexit economists predicted significant damage to industry, manufacturing and local economies outside of London. We also didn't use the immigration controls already available such as restrictions on the use of government services for those without a job. Council funding cuts are directly caused by the UK government and are the biggest burden on local councils.

Plus the European Army requires Denmark, the Netherlands and the Irish to agree to it which are all against it, also excluding our veto. Germany is also in fucking NATO, as is France.

Sorry but your opening first statement is clearly bollocks.

Why is it?
Reply
#86
(03-17-2019, 09:31 AM)SausEggBaton Wrote:
(03-16-2019, 10:34 PM)Borin\ Baggie Wrote:
(03-16-2019, 08:11 PM)FenlandBoing Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 12:04 PM)Beano Wrote:
(02-27-2019, 10:57 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: What negative effect did immigration have on Cornwall?

Not sure about Cornwall in particular, but I think you will find that many areas that relied on seasonal work have
seen huge challenges in opportunity following the arrival of so many Eastern European folks seeking work. That
is good and bad I suppose. Good if you run a business and want to keep costs down whilst increasing unsocial
hours, bad if your a local dependant on such work to avoid being trapped on Welfare.

It is not the fault of the East Europeans, they just want to better themselves but to believe that comes without
consequences for pay and conditions is delusional.

Absolutely. Here's one potential benefit from leaving the EU - the pressure on our services is huge at the moment - certainly throughout east anglia. If we can better control immigration then that's a straightforward benefit. When you have a family of 4 coming here with just one parent working for around minimum wage and the family claiming the benefits they are entitled too, how much tax does the govt and local council collect to offset those costs? We do need immigration of course but having better control of it would be a benefit. 

We have heard a lot of debate about security, well for the future; Germany will be in the pocket of Russia for its energy supply so I wonder how this might affect the european union and any policies going forwards, coupled with their ideal of a European army  - will we be able to go to war to protect a member of the Commonwealth in the future or will we be subject to asking permission from the EU? For me that's where our potential loss of sovereignty is. 

And most certainly i am no economist, but my best mate is and has lectured on the subject at universities. He also happens to be Polish and has lived in the UK for awhile and he believes we should vote out. He chose not to vote in the referendum because he didn't think it fair only having lived here for 10 years!!

EU immigrants contribute more per capita than British born citizens and even the pro-Brexit economists predicted significant damage to industry, manufacturing and local economies outside of London. We also didn't use the immigration controls already available such as restrictions on the use of government services for those without a job. Council funding cuts are directly caused by the UK government and are the biggest burden on local councils.

Plus the European Army requires Denmark, the Netherlands and the Irish to agree to it which are all against it, also excluding our veto. Germany is also in fucking NATO, as is France.

Sorry but your opening first statement is clearly bollocks.

Clearly bollocks eh?
Reply
#87
EThe leave campaign never thought they’d win - so promised things that were undeliverable 

If a political party had done this then they’d be voted out of government. A good example of this would be Clegg and the Lib Dem’s. they’ve literally disappeared because of tutition-gate.

Yes, we were told by Cameron that this vote was final etc but we were also told that 300 million a week would go to the NHS, negotiating trade deals would be easy and the EU place silly regulations on fruit (ffs!)

Not to mention the fact that its been ruled that if the referendum wasn’t only ADVISORY then it would be discarded because of Vote Leave’s foul play. How is that democratic?!?!?

Leavers only seem to cling onto their holier than thou democratic values when it suits.

Democracy is power to the people - now that we know th facts, give it back to the public to decide!!! !
Reply
#88
(03-19-2019, 10:18 AM)Winst_Baggie Wrote: EThe leave campaign never thought they’d win - so promised things that were undeliverable 

If a political party had done this then they’d be voted out of government. A good example of this would be Clegg and the Lib Dem’s. they’ve literally disappeared because of tutition-gate.

Yes, we were told by Cameron that this vote was final etc but we were also told that 300 million a week would go to the NHS, negotiating trade deals would be easy and the EU place silly regulations on fruit (ffs!)

Not to mention the fact that its been ruled that if the referendum wasn’t only ADVISORY then it would be discarded because of Vote Leave’s foul play. How is that democratic?!?!?

Leavers only seem to cling onto their holier than thou democratic values when it suits.

Democracy is power to the people - now that we know th facts, give it back to the public to decide!!! !

Utter bollox
Reply
#89
(03-20-2019, 08:04 PM)Cunninghamismagic Wrote:
(03-19-2019, 10:18 AM)Winst_Baggie Wrote: EThe leave campaign never thought they’d win - so promised things that were undeliverable 

If a political party had done this then they’d be voted out of government. A good example of this would be Clegg and the Lib Dem’s. they’ve literally disappeared because of tutition-gate.

Yes, we were told by Cameron that this vote was final etc but we were also told that 300 million a week would go to the NHS, negotiating trade deals would be easy and the EU place silly regulations on fruit (ffs!)

Not to mention the fact that its been ruled that if the referendum wasn’t only ADVISORY then it would be discarded because of Vote Leave’s foul play. How is that democratic?!?!?

Leavers only seem to cling onto their holier than thou democratic values when it suits.

Democracy is power to the people - now that we know th facts, give it back to the public to decide!!! !

Utter bollox

Why is it?
Reply
#90
No, that's what he'll be eating when the food rots in Calais and on the M20.
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