Boris Johnson
#21
(11-23-2021, 01:17 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote:
(11-23-2021, 12:23 PM)Protheroe Wrote: But the fact of the matter is, you can't have fiscal responsibility AND everything else you desire.

But it simply isn't fiscally responsible to neglect crucial infrastructure requirements for short term budgetary reasons as all that happens is the costs accumulate to the point of being unsustainable when the infrastructure starts to collapse. We have neglected the costs of rail infrastructure for decades by putting off needed investment and it's coming to a head to the point where we need to spend hundreds of billions (at a conservative estimate) to address something that would have been a fraction of the cost 40 years ago. We are approaching a mental health crisis due to the chronic underinvestment in mental health resources for decades. We've not kept up with healthcare training demands or facility and technology upgrades over the last 15 years and as a result we're not able to improve on outcomes with "record spending" still being below the required investment to catch up in turn creating a spiralling situation.

All this pretend Tory "fiscal responsibility" has done is ensure that the long term bill is larger than it needed to be. And if we don't address those issues now then it will cost even more in the future. We are already in a situation where we're not spending money needed on infrastructure, particularly outside the South East, but the tax burden is going up to keep a level of maintenance (49.5% marginal rate for masters graduates at £22k is unacceptable but is looking extremely likely, approaching a certainty, in the near future).

We need to abandon the chronic short-termism in this country.

This in spades
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#22
(11-23-2021, 12:59 PM)baggy1 Wrote:
(11-23-2021, 12:23 PM)Protheroe Wrote: But the fact of the matter is, you can't have fiscal responsibility AND everything else you desire.

True, but you can have more of what you desire (and what is important) if the war chest hasn't been handed out to your mates through Track and Trace and PPE contracts that have zero benefit to anyone apart from those cashing the Billions of pounds worth of cheques.

Indeed you could. But that ship has sailed and being right after the event is of no consequence now is it?

(11-23-2021, 01:17 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote:
(11-23-2021, 12:23 PM)Protheroe Wrote: But the fact of the matter is, you can't have fiscal responsibility AND everything else you desire.

But it simply isn't fiscally responsible to neglect crucial infrastructure requirements for short term budgetary reasons as all that happens is the costs accumulate to the point of being unsustainable when the infrastructure starts to collapse. We have neglected the costs of rail infrastructure for decades by putting off needed investment and it's coming to a head to the point where we need to spend hundreds of billions (at a conservative estimate) to address something that would have been a fraction of the cost 40 years ago. We are approaching a mental health crisis due to the chronic underinvestment in mental health resources for decades. We've not kept up with healthcare training demands or facility and technology upgrades over the last 15 years and as a result we're not able to improve on outcomes with "record spending" still being below the required investment to catch up in turn creating a spiralling situation.

All this pretend Tory "fiscal responsibility" has done is ensure that the long term bill is larger than it needed to be. And if we don't address those issues now then it will cost even more in the future. We are already in a situation where we're not spending money needed on infrastructure, particularly outside the South East, but the tax burden is going up to keep a level of maintenance (49.5% marginal rate for masters graduates at £22k is unacceptable but is looking extremely likely, approaching a certainty, in the near future).

We need to abandon the chronic short-termism in this country.

I don't disagree with the sentiment. You also call out pretend Tory "fiscal responsibility" which you know I also agree with.

And you've identified the greatest impediment too - no government could possibly tax us any more than they already are. The pips of Rishi's fiscal drag are barely starting to squeak - just wait until they do. Inflation, the most insidious tax of all - is eating into wealth on a daily basis too.

If that's the case, what can be done?
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#23
(11-23-2021, 03:10 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(11-23-2021, 12:59 PM)baggy1 Wrote:
(11-23-2021, 12:23 PM)Protheroe Wrote: But the fact of the matter is, you can't have fiscal responsibility AND everything else you desire.

True, but you can have more of what you desire (and what is important) if the war chest hasn't been handed out to your mates through Track and Trace and PPE contracts that have zero benefit to anyone apart from those cashing the Billions of pounds worth of cheques.

Indeed you could. But that ship has sailed and being right after the event is of no consequence now is it?

(11-23-2021, 01:17 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote:
(11-23-2021, 12:23 PM)Protheroe Wrote: But the fact of the matter is, you can't have fiscal responsibility AND everything else you desire.

But it simply isn't fiscally responsible to neglect crucial infrastructure requirements for short term budgetary reasons as all that happens is the costs accumulate to the point of being unsustainable when the infrastructure starts to collapse. We have neglected the costs of rail infrastructure for decades by putting off needed investment and it's coming to a head to the point where we need to spend hundreds of billions (at a conservative estimate) to address something that would have been a fraction of the cost 40 years ago. We are approaching a mental health crisis due to the chronic underinvestment in mental health resources for decades. We've not kept up with healthcare training demands or facility and technology upgrades over the last 15 years and as a result we're not able to improve on outcomes with "record spending" still being below the required investment to catch up in turn creating a spiralling situation.

All this pretend Tory "fiscal responsibility" has done is ensure that the long term bill is larger than it needed to be. And if we don't address those issues now then it will cost even more in the future. We are already in a situation where we're not spending money needed on infrastructure, particularly outside the South East, but the tax burden is going up to keep a level of maintenance (49.5% marginal rate for masters graduates at £22k is unacceptable but is looking extremely likely, approaching a certainty, in the near future).

We need to abandon the chronic short-termism in this country.

I don't disagree with the sentiment. You also call out pretend Tory "fiscal responsibility" which you know I also agree with.

And you've identified the greatest impediment too - no government could possibly tax us any more than they already are. The pips of Rishi's fiscal drag are barely starting to squeak - just wait until they do. Inflation, the most insidious tax of all - is eating into wealth on a daily basis too.

If that's the case, what can be done?

It's important to recognise the failures and rectify them rather than ignore them with a 'oh well, what's done is done' approach. Those responsible need to be made to face the repercussions and have assets seized that have been appropriated by illegal means, 'proceeds of crime' and all that. Where abuse of parliamentary power is deemed a criminal offence then appropriate measures should be taken. That should make any future Hancocks, Goves and Chadlingtons of this world realise they are not above the law.

Then what can be done - first of all we need to identify the problem, and it seems that the problem is a decade and more of tory designed austerity which has left us with a collapsing state machinery. Then once we understand the problem we get rid of it and try a new approach.
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#24
(11-23-2021, 03:10 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(11-23-2021, 01:17 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote:
(11-23-2021, 12:23 PM)Protheroe Wrote: But the fact of the matter is, you can't have fiscal responsibility AND everything else you desire.

But it simply isn't fiscally responsible to neglect crucial infrastructure requirements for short term budgetary reasons as all that happens is the costs accumulate to the point of being unsustainable when the infrastructure starts to collapse. We have neglected the costs of rail infrastructure for decades by putting off needed investment and it's coming to a head to the point where we need to spend hundreds of billions (at a conservative estimate) to address something that would have been a fraction of the cost 40 years ago. We are approaching a mental health crisis due to the chronic underinvestment in mental health resources for decades. We've not kept up with healthcare training demands or facility and technology upgrades over the last 15 years and as a result we're not able to improve on outcomes with "record spending" still being below the required investment to catch up in turn creating a spiralling situation.

All this pretend Tory "fiscal responsibility" has done is ensure that the long term bill is larger than it needed to be. And if we don't address those issues now then it will cost even more in the future. We are already in a situation where we're not spending money needed on infrastructure, particularly outside the South East, but the tax burden is going up to keep a level of maintenance (49.5% marginal rate for masters graduates at £22k is unacceptable but is looking extremely likely, approaching a certainty, in the near future).

We need to abandon the chronic short-termism in this country.

I don't disagree with the sentiment. You also call out pretend Tory "fiscal responsibility" which you know I also agree with.

And you've identified the greatest impediment too - no government could possibly tax us any more than they already are. The pips of Rishi's fiscal drag are barely starting to squeak - just wait until they do. Inflation, the most insidious tax of all - is eating into wealth on a daily basis too.

If that's the case, what can be done?

Build the sodding infrastructure. We need it and the more we twiddle our thumbs the more it will end up costing when it's urgent. And tell the Treasury to stop focusing on potential for return as the deciding metric for public infrastructure as all that approach has done is centralise infrastructure investment into London even when private capital is more than capable of meeting demand in turn shafting the rest of the country. We've just screwed over the North and East Midlands as well as cripple rail freight capacity in the West Midlands by virtue of scrapping HS2 Phase 2b, why? We're going to get to 2040 and realise it needs to be built.

Taxation policy in this country is also stupid, middle earners are squeezed and it's disproportionately leveraged on younger workers by virtue of NI and student "loan" repayments. Stop letting BDT's and CD's act as a tax vacuum via the City, tax assets appropriately and stop worrying about taking on debt for large infrastructure projects especially when it is cheap.
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#25
[Image: FE5rA9nXIAMklct?format=jpg&name=small]
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#26
Democracy is what puts incompetent buffoons in positions of power. I don't suppose most mainstream Tories would have dreamed that the serially unpopular (with anyone who ever worked with him) and untrustworthy Johnson could lead the party. And the grandees of the Republican party are horrified that Trump and his baying supporters have taken over their agenda (whatever it was). But every party loves power and if these clowns win elections, that's better than losing them. I'm sure the Tories will find a way of getting Johnson out, but I can't see him ever compromising and stepping down graciously for health reasons or to "Spend more time with his family". He may have to crash and burn.

The long term malaise of Britain goes back to Thatcher times when public spending became an evil, and accelerated in the coalition years when Cameron and Osborne cut far deeper and more brutally than was ever necessary, then got away with blaming the Lib Dems for everything (shame on Clegg for falling for that). Most countries in the west manage better than us at balancing tax and spend, at maintaining an infrastructure, welfare system and functioning industries without having relinquished ownership and all key capabilities to foreign investors. This is the irony of the new jingoism - most people don't know that France, Germany and Russia have hold of the remote control that works our economy.

While the Labour Party still agonise over the supposed "legacy of Corbyn", they need to realise that Brexit and Boris Johnson's Commons majority both happened on Corbyn's watch. Without Seamus Milne editing Corbyn's speeches the Remain campaign could have been much stronger. If the opposition parties hadn't agreed to have an election in December 2019, Boris would have been struggling along without a majority. I don't believe he could have survived that for much longer.
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#27
(11-26-2021, 12:21 PM)Cheshire East Baggie Wrote: Democracy is what puts incompetent buffoons in positions of power. I don't suppose most mainstream Tories would have dreamed that the serially unpopular (with anyone who ever worked with him) and untrustworthy Johnson could lead the party. And the grandees of the Republican party are horrified that Trump and his baying supporters have taken over their agenda (whatever it was). But every party loves power and if these clowns win elections, that's better than losing them. I'm sure the Tories will find a way of getting Johnson out, but I can't see him ever compromising and stepping down graciously for health reasons or to "Spend more time with his family". He may have to crash and burn.

The long term malaise of Britain goes back to Thatcher times when public spending became an evil, and accelerated in the coalition years when Cameron and Osborne cut far deeper and more brutally than was ever necessary, then got away with blaming the Lib Dems for everything (shame on Clegg for falling for that). Most countries in the west manage better than us at balancing tax and spend, at maintaining an infrastructure, welfare system and functioning industries without having relinquished ownership and all key capabilities to foreign investors. This is the irony of the new jingoism - most people don't know that France, Germany and Russia have hold of the remote control that works our economy.

While the Labour Party still agonise over the supposed "legacy of Corbyn", they need to realise that Brexit and Boris Johnson's Commons majority both happened on Corbyn's watch. Without Seamus Milne editing Corbyn's speeches the Remain campaign could have been much stronger. If the opposition parties hadn't agreed to have an election in December 2019, Boris would have been struggling along without a majority. I don't believe he could have survived that for much longer.

Good post Chesh.
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#28
(11-26-2021, 12:21 PM)Cheshire East Baggie Wrote: Democracy is what puts incompetent buffoons in positions of power. I don't suppose most mainstream Tories would have dreamed that the serially unpopular (with anyone who ever worked with him) and untrustworthy Johnson could lead the party. And the grandees of the Republican party are horrified that Trump and his baying supporters have taken over their agenda (whatever it was). But every party loves power and if these clowns win elections, that's better than losing them. I'm sure the Tories will find a way of getting Johnson out, but I can't see him ever compromising and stepping down graciously for health reasons or to "Spend more time with his family". He may have to crash and burn.

The long term malaise of Britain goes back to Thatcher times when public spending became an evil, and accelerated in the coalition years when Cameron and Osborne cut far deeper and more brutally than was ever necessary, then got away with blaming the Lib Dems for everything (shame on Clegg for falling for that). Most countries in the west manage better than us at balancing tax and spend, at maintaining an infrastructure, welfare system and functioning industries without having relinquished ownership and all key capabilities to foreign investors. This is the irony of the new jingoism - most people don't know that France, Germany and Russia have hold of the remote control that works our economy.

While the Labour Party still agonise over the supposed "legacy of Corbyn", they need to realise that Brexit and Boris Johnson's Commons majority both happened on Corbyn's watch. Without Seamus Milne editing Corbyn's speeches the Remain campaign could have been much stronger. If the opposition parties hadn't agreed to have an election in December 2019, Boris would have been struggling along without a majority. I don't believe he could have survived that for much longer.

I stopped reading as soon as I got to "The long term malaise of Britain goes back to Thatcher"
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#29
(11-28-2021, 08:51 AM)Protheroe Wrote:
(11-26-2021, 12:21 PM)Cheshire East Baggie Wrote: Democracy is what puts incompetent buffoons in positions of power. I don't suppose most mainstream Tories would have dreamed that the serially unpopular (with anyone who ever worked with him) and untrustworthy Johnson could lead the party. And the grandees of the Republican party are horrified that Trump and his baying supporters have taken over their agenda (whatever it was). But every party loves power and if these clowns win elections, that's better than losing them. I'm sure the Tories will find a way of getting Johnson out, but I can't see him ever compromising and stepping down graciously for health reasons or to "Spend more time with his family". He may have to crash and burn.

The long term malaise of Britain goes back to Thatcher times when public spending became an evil, and accelerated in the coalition years when Cameron and Osborne cut far deeper and more brutally than was ever necessary, then got away with blaming the Lib Dems for everything (shame on Clegg for falling for that). Most countries in the west manage better than us at balancing tax and spend, at maintaining an infrastructure, welfare system and functioning industries without having relinquished ownership and all key capabilities to foreign investors. This is the irony of the new jingoism - most people don't know that France, Germany and Russia have hold of the remote control that works our economy.

While the Labour Party still agonise over the supposed "legacy of Corbyn", they need to realise that Brexit and Boris Johnson's Commons majority both happened on Corbyn's watch. Without Seamus Milne editing Corbyn's speeches the Remain campaign could have been much stronger. If the opposition parties hadn't agreed to have an election in December 2019, Boris would have been struggling along without a majority. I don't believe he could have survived that for much longer.

I stopped reading as soon as I got to "The long term malaise of Britain goes back to Thatcher"

You need to explain why. Don't you accept that Margaret Thatcher (and the puppet masters who pulled her strings) made huge changes to the political and social landscape of Britain? Strange, because many people I've spoken to tell me how she "won the peace" while Churchill "only won the war". If you applaud her achievements, why do you stop reading when anyone alludes to her actions? You seem to pride yourself as a sensible commentator on things economic and political, but your response is very much more Daily Express than Daily Telegraph. Or maybe you're just having a go at Chesh. Which again, is not a very grown-up way to have a debate. I expect better of you.
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#30
Simple. Thatcher stopped the long term malaise. By and large Blair continued her legacy.

Unfortunately since Gordon Brown we’ve reverted to type.
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