Pigs
#21
(10-11-2021, 10:59 AM)Protheroe Wrote: I prefer the facts Dekka.

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/...0919089162

It's markets, you see.

7 seconds into the piece - the crisis is being blamed on a shortage of workers in the meat industry, and that is true, but....

Your 11% figure also gets a mention, but put in context of the position we were in last October with hospitality facing curfews and closures are you really surprised we are higher this year. This is basic common sense Proth, face it. The abattoirs are set up to do much more but the lack of labour is restricting the ability to do that.

And we are here again, there are many reasons which have been exacerbated by Brexit and stopping FOM but Brexiteers appear to bury their head in the sand and avoid dealing with one of the issues. Deal with the problem(s) to get to a solution.
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#22
(10-11-2021, 11:49 AM)baggy1 Wrote:
(10-11-2021, 10:59 AM)Protheroe Wrote: I prefer the facts Dekka.

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/...0919089162

It's markets, you see.

7 seconds into the piece - the crisis is being blamed on a shortage of workers in the meat industry, and that is true, but....

Your 11% figure also gets a mention, but put in context of the position we were in last October with hospitality facing curfews and closures are you really surprised we are higher this year. This is basic common sense Proth, face it. The abattoirs are set up to do much more but the lack of labour is restricting the ability to do that.

And we are here again, there are many reasons which have been exacerbated by Brexit and stopping FOM but Brexiteers appear to bury their head in the sand and avoid dealing with one of the issues. Deal with the problem(s) to get to a solution.

No. No No.

Put into the context that there are more pigs. Pig production went up to serve China hence more pigs need to be processed curfew or no curfew. A complete straw man.

Put into context that MORE pigs need MORE processing for non-Chinese markets. Put into context that there are not enough trained operatives in the whole of the EU.

Ignore all this if you like, but Brexit is a minor sideshow in a much bigger issue of oversupply of pork. Thems the facts.

(10-11-2021, 11:10 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(10-11-2021, 10:59 AM)Protheroe Wrote: I prefer the facts Dekka.

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/...0919089162

It's markets, you see.

No you are picking and choosing facts and discarding the rest. The loss of workers from the EU has exasperated the problem in the UK and no amount of ignoring experts in their field that are interviewed in those reports I linked to will change that. This is the same nonsensical argument put forward about a lack of HGV drivers. Neither sectors will be helped by a loss of FOM from the EU and labelling those that do those jobs as unskilled means all migrant workers will be barred from the UK unless they receive limited visa's to work here be they from Europe or further afield. Brexit is part of the problem. Stop trying to gaslight your way through this mess we are in.

You're the one gaslighting through your Brexity prism. Where exactly do we get these EU workers from if the EU reports a shortage of operatives across the EU to process a surfeit of pork. You're not that dim, surely? The problem is too much UK & EU pork trying to find a home - as the report states, and the market price of pork proves.
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#23
(10-11-2021, 04:32 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(10-11-2021, 11:49 AM)baggy1 Wrote:
(10-11-2021, 10:59 AM)Protheroe Wrote: I prefer the facts Dekka.

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/...0919089162

It's markets, you see.

7 seconds into the piece - the crisis is being blamed on a shortage of workers in the meat industry, and that is true, but....

Your 11% figure also gets a mention, but put in context of the position we were in last October with hospitality facing curfews and closures are you really surprised we are higher this year. This is basic common sense Proth, face it. The abattoirs are set up to do much more but the lack of labour is restricting the ability to do that.

And we are here again, there are many reasons which have been exacerbated by Brexit and stopping FOM but Brexiteers appear to bury their head in the sand and avoid dealing with one of the issues. Deal with the problem(s) to get to a solution.

No. No No.

Put into the context that there are more pigs. Pig production went up to serve China hence more pigs need to be processed curfew or no curfew. A complete straw man.

Put into context that MORE pigs need MORE processing for non-Chinese markets. Put into context that there are not enough trained operatives in the whole of the EU.

Ignore all this if you like, but Brexit is a minor sideshow in a much bigger issue of oversupply of pork. Thems the facts.


So basically you are saying that there isn't a shortage of workers, we've just got too many pigs that we don't need and the businesses were just going to process them for no reason as they couldn't sell them to China anyway?

Simple question - why would they need to process the pigs that they won't be able to sell? I understand your point by the way, but the situation is that we do need more workers and we have reduced our pool of available workers by stopping FoM.
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#24
(10-11-2021, 05:32 PM)baggy1 Wrote: So basically you are saying that there isn't a shortage of workers, we've just got too many pigs that we don't need and the businesses were just going to process them for no reason as they couldn't sell them to China anyway?

Simple question - why would they need to process the pigs that they won't be able to sell? I understand your point by the way, but the situation is that we do need more workers and we have reduced our pool of available workers by stopping FoM.

Largely, yes. Pork farmers massively ramped up production to fill the holes created by the Chinese and German swine flu epidemics. Now they're over there is a surfeit of pork. Pork for the Chinese market needed hardly any processing (so less workers), pork for EU markets requires far more (so more workers). 

Your simple question is the wrong question. Look at the price of pork vs lamb, beef or chicken. The pressure to process pork is coming from the producers (farmers) rather than the meat processing industry. The market prices and margins on lamb, beef and chicken are stable, the price of pork has fallen and is falling further due to over supply. The farmers want to liquidate their stock at any possible price. 

If the EU is also suffering from a lack of operatives then FoM wouldn't make any difference anyway. As I said earlier the EU is looking outside the EEA for operatives. 

There is no reason that skilled operatives shouldn't be on the approved list for migration from the EU or from anywhere else for that matter - and I made that point at the beginning of the thread. However, this still doesn't solve the issue that the UK and Europe are oversupplied by pork.
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#25
Looking forward to my Hog Roast Christmas dinner which should be pretty cheap on that basis with the shortage of Turkeys this year.

We can't ignore the fact that we have the highest level of vacancies unfilled since records began and if Brexiteers aren't going to recognise that Brexit has been a (major) contributor to that then we won't solve the problem. I have two mates who have their own businesses in the motor trade and they cannot get staff for love or money - that is restricting the amount of work they can do obviously and impacting on their ability to make a profit as margins are reducing.

We are where we are, Brexit isn't going to be overturned but we have to have a solution that isn't 'add it to the skilled list', because that skilled list needs to cover virtually every job needed. I'm keen to know what isn't judged as skilled.

And it is ok to admit that Brexit has left us short, because it has, and not see that as an admission of failure - its more a recognition of reality that we need to find a realistic solution to. And on that list of solutions we should consider a temporary return to FoM until we can upskill our own workforce.
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#26
I don't think Brexit has left us any shorter than we would have been otherwise. The shortages you cite are found in every developed economy right now.

We need to decide what sort of economy we'd like to be. For far too long that has been an economy with sclerotic productivity growth aided and abetted by FoM.
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#27
(10-12-2021, 01:22 PM)Protheroe Wrote: I don't think Brexit has left us any shorter than we would have been otherwise. The shortages you cite are found in every developed economy right now.

We need to decide what sort of economy we'd like to be. For far too long that has been an economy with sclerotic productivity growth aided and abetted by FoM.

So the current lack of available recruits is nothing to do with us cutting of freedom of movement in any way shape or form. And you wonder why I have no faith in solving the problem if it can't be recognised. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that is the only reason I am saying it is A reason, and by removing freedom of movement we have made the situation worse - if you can't see and accept that you will never solve it.
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#28
(10-12-2021, 01:22 PM)Protheroe Wrote: I don't think Brexit has left us any shorter than we would have been otherwise. The shortages you cite are found in every developed economy right now.

We need to decide what sort of economy we'd like to be. For far too long that has been an economy with sclerotic productivity growth aided and abetted by FoM.

There isn't a plausible link between freedom of movement and productivity.

The real problem is a belief that business will not share the benefits of improved productivity with their workforce. A belief that increased automation will mean a need for humans to work less hours, leading to a decrease in income.
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#29
(10-12-2021, 01:48 PM)Shabby Russian Wrote:
(10-12-2021, 01:22 PM)Protheroe Wrote: I don't think Brexit has left us any shorter than we would have been otherwise. The shortages you cite are found in every developed economy right now.

We need to decide what sort of economy we'd like to be. For far too long that has been an economy with sclerotic productivity growth aided and abetted by FoM.

There isn't a plausible link between freedom of movement and productivity.

The real problem is a belief that business will not share the benefits of improved productivity with their workforce. A belief that increased automation will mean a need for humans to work less hours, leading to a decrease in income.

There's a very plausible link between employers having the choice to pay lower wages to Romanians & Bulgarians and opting to invest in automation. Society has always shared the benefits of improved productivity. How many hours do you have to work to earn enough to buy a loaf of bread today compared with 1921?

(10-12-2021, 01:40 PM)baggy1 Wrote:
(10-12-2021, 01:22 PM)Protheroe Wrote: I don't think Brexit has left us any shorter than we would have been otherwise. The shortages you cite are found in every developed economy right now.

We need to decide what sort of economy we'd like to be. For far too long that has been an economy with sclerotic productivity growth aided and abetted by FoM.

So the current lack of available recruits is nothing to do with us cutting of freedom of movement in any way shape or form. And you wonder why I have no faith in solving the problem if it can't be recognised. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that is the only reason I am saying it is A reason, and by removing freedom of movement we have made the situation worse - if you can't see and accept that you will never solve it.

I accept it's A reason, yes. It's also a choice enabled by Brexit.

But it certainly has nothing to do with the oversupply of pigs.
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#30
In reply to Proth, it is possible to allow freedom of movement of labour and have a high wage economy, if that is what the Govt wants. All they need to  do is raise the statutory minimum wage rate to a level which they think is suitable. And then enforce it.
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