HGV driver shortages
#11
(07-05-2021, 02:36 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-05-2021, 01:34 PM)baggy1 Wrote: Improved conditions and pay could have (and should have) been achieved without Brexit,

Bwahahahahahaha with unlimited freedom of movement? I'm not going to bother discussing this anymore.

Big Grin What a cop out

There is a shortage of 100k drivers of which 15k was filled by 'unlimited freedom of movement', that shortfall of 85k should have meant the market demanded wages increase to fill those positions. 

I see proth is returning to type when he loses a point.
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#12
(07-05-2021, 01:57 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Proth now trying to reinvent himself as a working class hero, defender of the poor British worker.

And your true colours are shining through. You'd rather post post high virtue status messages than actually address the impact and failings of the FoM which are plain for all to see in this sector, and in agricultural picking and packing. I don't need to reinvent myself as the defender of the working class, they clearly agree with my by rejecting the EU and socialism at every turn - even if the current government is the most Keynesian since 1979.

(07-05-2021, 02:41 PM)baggy1 Wrote:
(07-05-2021, 02:36 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-05-2021, 01:34 PM)baggy1 Wrote: Improved conditions and pay could have (and should have) been achieved without Brexit,

Bwahahahahahaha with unlimited freedom of movement? I'm not going to bother discussing this anymore.

Big Grin What a cop out

There is a shortage of 100k drivers of which 15k was filled by 'unlimited freedom of movement', that shortfall of 85k should have meant the market demanded wages increase to fill those positions. 

I see proth is returning to type when he loses a point.

And you're ignoring that this a problem an awful long time in the making. You just can't see beyond that starry blue zit in your nose, that FoM was *one* contributor - amongst the others I mentioned that you conveniently ignore as they don't suit your narrative.
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#13
(07-05-2021, 10:42 AM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-05-2021, 10:26 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote: Probably needs to ask why are the wages low?

I think I've answered that often enough, but at the risk of repeating myself:

1. Unlimited supply of labour from Eastern Europe, Spain & Portugal willing to put up with awful wages, hours and conditions as they're still better than work at home / unemployment at home.
2. Crap wages can often be supplemented by tax credits / child benefit which means the State is subsidising companies who pay poverty wages.
3. Too many companies exist who only make a profit by paying crap wages.
4. Too few companies will invest in automation whilst wages are so low.
5. We're too eager to accept all of the above to keep supermarket prices cheap.

Points 2 to 5 I think to some extent are reasonable ones, think point 1 is more an explanation of the solution business has found to recruitment in an era of low wages.

I would add the following explanations. The reduction of Trade Union representation of workers in the private sector, a decade of very high unemployment leading to workers accepting lower wages and also a reluctance of some, not all, private sector employers to give their employees a fair share of profits made.
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#14
(07-05-2021, 02:46 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-05-2021, 02:41 PM)baggy1 Wrote:
(07-05-2021, 02:36 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-05-2021, 01:34 PM)baggy1 Wrote: Improved conditions and pay could have (and should have) been achieved without Brexit,

Bwahahahahahaha with unlimited freedom of movement? I'm not going to bother discussing this anymore.

Big Grin What a cop out

There is a shortage of 100k drivers of which 15k was filled by 'unlimited freedom of movement', that shortfall of 85k should have meant the market demanded wages increase to fill those positions. 

I see proth is returning to type when he loses a point.

And you're ignoring that this a problem an awful long time in the making. You just can't see beyond that starry blue zit in your nose, that FoM was *one* contributor - amongst the others I mentioned that you conveniently ignore as they don't suit your narrative.

You do lose credibility when you talk of my narrative when you try and shoehorn Brexit into every conversation - Strangely I became CPC Manager qualified a few years ago (I got landed with the transport department of a major contract to make sure it ran efficiently) and have a bit of insight into this world (albeit happily short lived).

You are conflating many points by lumping together all HGV drivers as long distance HGV drivers. JOK even indicated at the start of this that a big problem comes from the kerbside drop element which will clearly be a day job. There are varying levels of HGV drivers and the larger artic drivers will demand some pretty decent wages well above the national average, some of the highly skilled hazardous materials guys will be (rightly so) on a packet.

There were jobs there all along and because of the continued shortage the freedom of movement element impacted a small part of the industry.
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#15
(07-05-2021, 02:46 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-05-2021, 01:57 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Proth now trying to reinvent himself as a working class hero, defender of the poor British worker.

And your true colours are shining through. You'd rather post post high virtue status messages than actually address the impact and failings of the FoM which are plain for all to see in this sector, and in agricultural picking and packing. I don't need to reinvent myself as the defender of the working class, they clearly agree with my by rejecting the EU and socialism at every turn - even if the current government is the most Keynesian since 1979.

Arf ‘high virtue status messages’ is this the new political lingo bingo bollocks to attack people for saying they care about something or think something isn’t right? I can imagine Hard Man Steve Baker, Francois, Andrew Bridge and James Cleverly using the term whenever anyone criticises them.
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#16
(07-05-2021, 03:13 PM)baggy1 Wrote:
(07-05-2021, 02:46 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-05-2021, 02:41 PM)baggy1 Wrote:
(07-05-2021, 02:36 PM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-05-2021, 01:34 PM)baggy1 Wrote: Improved conditions and pay could have (and should have) been achieved without Brexit,

Bwahahahahahaha with unlimited freedom of movement? I'm not going to bother discussing this anymore.

Big Grin What a cop out

There is a shortage of 100k drivers of which 15k was filled by 'unlimited freedom of movement', that shortfall of 85k should have meant the market demanded wages increase to fill those positions. 

I see proth is returning to type when he loses a point.

And you're ignoring that this a problem an awful long time in the making. You just can't see beyond that starry blue zit in your nose, that FoM was *one* contributor - amongst the others I mentioned that you conveniently ignore as they don't suit your narrative.

You do lose credibility when you talk of my narrative when you try and shoehorn Brexit into every conversation - Strangely I became CPC Manager qualified a few years ago (I got landed with the transport department of a major contract to make sure it ran efficiently) and have a bit of insight into this world (albeit happily short lived).

You are conflating many points by lumping together all HGV drivers as long distance HGV drivers. JOK even indicated at the start of this that a big problem comes from the kerbside drop element which will clearly be a day job. There are varying levels of HGV drivers and the larger artic drivers will demand some pretty decent wages well above the national average, some of the highly skilled hazardous materials guys will be (rightly so) on a packet.

There were jobs there all along and because of the continued shortage the freedom of movement element impacted a small part of the industry.

From what I've been told one of the major issues (aside from access to amenities) has been the overus agency staff and PAYE regulations. That has fuck all to do with the EU, that is a domestic issue. The issue created by leaving the EU is predominantly caused by some hauliers needing to adjust routes and it not being as viable to take on multiple stops within the UK en-route to the continent due to paperwork.
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#17
(07-05-2021, 03:13 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: Arf ‘high virtue status messages’ is this the new political lingo bingo bollocks to attack people for saying they care about something

No, I reserve it for people who pontificate for status on the internet but can't be arsed to involve themselves in politics to do anything about it.

You, my friend - are an absolutely classic example. You may not agree with me about much, but at least I got off my arse for 30 years to involve myself in issues I cared about.
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#18
Well, what do you know? There is not, it turns out, a driver ‘shortage’ in the U.K.
 
“And yet, according to the Road Haulage Association, over half a million people in the country hold HGV licences. Former Trucking Magazine editor Richard Simpson, in a letter to The Guardian, put it even higher at 600,000.” (Funny this  was missed  Rolleyes  )
 
“Given the current shortage is 100,000, a quick calculation suggests there are still around three available HGV licence holders for every vacancy and, even if you take away 30% as working in haulage support roles (such as training or relief staff), there should, on paper, be enough drivers to fill all vacancies.”
 
https://theloadstar.com/comment-the-driver-shortage-crisis-resolving-it-is-now-beyond-the-industry/
Sorry another of those meaningless links. I don’t use Twatter so couldn’t find the true anecdotal ‘facts’.

There is just a shortage of people who don’t want to work for relatively low wages and sh*t conditions, kept artificially so by being able to exploit poorer nations' workforces.
 
Germany supply problems
“Supply problems are weighing on the manufacturing and the retail sectors, with almost 64% of industrial firms complaining about shortages in materials, according to the institute.”  Bloody Brexit !
 
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-ifo-business-climate-index-falls-unexpectedly-2021-07-26/ (one of SoftBollock’s  preferred sources)
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#19
Check out the ages of those with HGV licences
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#20
(07-05-2021, 10:42 AM)Protheroe Wrote:
(07-05-2021, 10:26 AM)Shabby Russian Wrote: Probably needs to ask why are the wages low?

I think I've answered that often enough, but at the risk of repeating myself:

1. Unlimited supply of labour from Eastern Europe, Spain & Portugal willing to put up with awful wages, hours and conditions as they're still better than work at home / unemployment at home.
2. Crap wages can often be supplemented by tax credits / child benefit which means the State is subsidising companies who pay poverty wages.
3. Too many companies exist who only make a profit by paying crap wages.
4. Too few companies will invest in automation whilst wages are so low.
5. We're too eager to accept all of the above to keep supermarket prices cheap.

Exactly

Dont remember Tesco & co moaning when they announced record profits over the last 20 years
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