What should society do
*doesn't like divisiveness*

*spends 12 pages arguing the toss with all and sundry and continually stirring the pot*

I've been calling homeopaths and people who believe in crystals morons for years and have managed to not punch one, stop being such a drama queen. They aren't indirectly murdering other people I suppose though...
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(05-27-2021, 11:31 AM)ChamonixBaggie Wrote: *doesn't like divisiveness*

*spends 12 pages arguing the toss with all and sundry and continually stirring the pot*

I've been calling homeopaths and people who believe in crystals morons for years and have managed to not punch one, stop being such a drama queen. They aren't indirectly murdering other people I suppose though...

I’m not stirring the pot, debate doesn’t equal divisiveness.

And I’m not saying anyone on here is going to get violent, I’m saying that if society groups people like that, sone will take it too far. Not you or anyone on here.

I’ll leave it there now anyway, it’s probably best. No one is going to change their mind on this. I just hope it doesn’t go too far in society in general.
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(05-27-2021, 11:13 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote:
(05-27-2021, 11:03 AM)Birdman1811 Wrote: Guess backsidebaggie also believes we shouldn't be angry at drink drivers, after all it's their right to drink as much as they want and go for a drive I guess. The people they run over and kill should respect that.

It's a hyperbolic analogy but how far do you go?

No. Ones illegal, one isn’t.

(05-27-2021, 10:56 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(05-27-2021, 10:37 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote:
(05-27-2021, 10:27 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(05-27-2021, 10:00 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote: Nope, I’ve never said they’re victims in the slightest. Still putting words in my mouth, as usual. I’m just conscious that the divisiveness being bought into by some people, and stoked by journalists like Dan Hodges of the daily mail, will lead to serious issues in this respect. I hope I’m wrong about that.


I think there’s a very good chance you’re right.

Baggy1, out of interest do you know the overall percentage uptake of the vaccine required for herd immunity? Think i’d read 80% ages ago but not certain.

You go out of your way to defend the rights of people to not have the jab and give but a cursory couple of lines to those who could be harmed by their decisions / rights. You cannot expect those put at risk or their family and friends to be in anyway supportive or even polite about the decisions they’ve made.

Also worth noting that not all vulnerable people are old. Not that it makes a difference either way.

I defend their right to bodily autonomy. I don’t give a cursory line of two about those affected, but I don’t see a workable solution, and you can’t come up with one.

I don’t expect everyone to be supportive, opinions are like arseholes. I do expect people not to be abusive or stoke up divisiveness because we live in a civilised society and that gets us nowhere. And my main worry is that the impoliteness will go a stage or two further in some cases, and end up with assaults/violence. That is my worry. Unfortunately some people love to have a go at a ‘group’ (your idea that being impolite is acceptable is the first stage of this) and this is manifesting itself in this case. I hope it doesn’t go further, but unfortunately I suspect it will.

Your reasoning seems to be that the vulnerable and those that care for them should be very polite in their disappointment at those who refuse the vaccine. Regardless whether it may be putting them at more risk of death or serious illness than what is necessary. You expect a great deal from one group and absolutely nothing from the other.

Nope, I believe in bodily autonomy. And I don’t like divisiveness.

Whether you realise it or not you are making allowances for one group and expecting those at risk to meekly accept their wishes, and putting the onus on them not to offend. You are being unrealistic and unfair. One groups rights do not outweigh another's when one puts the other at greater risk of serious harm or death. If it was just their choice not to get vaccinated and it didn't effect anyone else then I'd say so go for it, more fool them but that isn't the situation we are in.
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(05-27-2021, 12:39 PM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(05-27-2021, 11:13 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote:
(05-27-2021, 11:03 AM)Birdman1811 Wrote: Guess backsidebaggie also believes we shouldn't be angry at drink drivers, after all it's their right to drink as much as they want and go for a drive I guess. The people they run over and kill should respect that.

It's a hyperbolic analogy but how far do you go?

No. Ones illegal, one isn’t.

(05-27-2021, 10:56 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote:
(05-27-2021, 10:37 AM)backsidebaggie Wrote:
(05-27-2021, 10:27 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: You go out of your way to defend the rights of people to not have the jab and give but a cursory couple of lines to those who could be harmed by their decisions / rights. You cannot expect those put at risk or their family and friends to be in anyway supportive or even polite about the decisions they’ve made.

Also worth noting that not all vulnerable people are old. Not that it makes a difference either way.

I defend their right to bodily autonomy. I don’t give a cursory line of two about those affected, but I don’t see a workable solution, and you can’t come up with one.

I don’t expect everyone to be supportive, opinions are like arseholes. I do expect people not to be abusive or stoke up divisiveness because we live in a civilised society and that gets us nowhere. And my main worry is that the impoliteness will go a stage or two further in some cases, and end up with assaults/violence. That is my worry. Unfortunately some people love to have a go at a ‘group’ (your idea that being impolite is acceptable is the first stage of this) and this is manifesting itself in this case. I hope it doesn’t go further, but unfortunately I suspect it will.

Your reasoning seems to be that the vulnerable and those that care for them should be very polite in their disappointment at those who refuse the vaccine. Regardless whether it may be putting them at more risk of death or serious illness than what is necessary. You expect a great deal from one group and absolutely nothing from the other.

Nope, I believe in bodily autonomy. And I don’t like divisiveness.

Whether you realise it or not you are making allowances for one group and expecting those at risk to meekly accept their wishes, and putting the onus on them not to offend. You are being unrealistic and unfair. One groups rights do not outweigh another's when one puts the other at greater risk of serious harm or death. If it was just their choice not to get vaccinated and it didn't effect anyone else then I'd say so go for it, more fool them but that isn't the situation we are in.

The law says they have to accept them DH. They don’t have to meekly, but they have to accept them. That’s a fact. No one has to agree, that’s fine. But that’s how it is. Again, you haven’t suggested a workable solution. But you are entitled to offend, of course you are. I just worry that’s a thin end of the wedge and some in society will go too far. I don’t mean you or anyone on this board.

One other important point. I suspect there’s a lot of people undecided. They don’t know whether to have the vaccine or not. If society calls those who don’t want it idiots/thick etc, those on the fence are less likely to be persuaded to have it, not more likely, as they are effectively being called thick for even considering not having it.
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As said, if people deny it, they can't complain if lockdowns occur. They, or their loved ones die of covid because they essentially encouraged that to happen because they think they know better than experts.
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(05-27-2021, 12:55 PM)Birdman1811 Wrote: As said, if people deny it, they can't complain if lockdowns occur. They, or their loved ones die of covid because they essentially encouraged that to happen because they think they know better than experts.

I don’t disagree with that at all.
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Its wonderful that we live in a country where 90%+ of people willingly, or at least begrudgingly, will take a vaccine, that is not at zero risk to themselves, to protect the many so a minority can say bollox to that I'm not having it.

I hope those people who choose not to be vaccinated understand how selfish that attitude is and if replicated throughout the population would see millions die healthcare collapse and the world changed forever. Lets hope they don't need treatment for any ailments un-related to COVID-19 cos that would be awful for them

Bravo lads and lasses for taking a stand for your right to be a fucking moron and bravo to the rest of us for creating a world in which they can be.
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(05-29-2021, 06:37 AM)fbaggy Wrote: Its wonderful that we live in a country where 90%+ of people willingly, or at least begrudgingly, will take a vaccine, that is not at zero risk to themselves, to protect the many so a minority can say bollox to that I'm not having it.

I hope those people who choose not to be vaccinated understand how selfish that attitude is and if replicated throughout the population would see millions die healthcare collapse and the world changed forever. Lets hope they don't need treatment for any ailments un-related to COVID-19 cos that would be awful for them

Bravo lads and lasses for taking a stand for your right to be a fucking moron and bravo to the rest of us for creating a world in which they can be.

Stop been mean to them!
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(05-29-2021, 06:37 AM)fbaggy Wrote: Its wonderful that we live in a country where 90%+ of people willingly, or at least begrudgingly, will take a vaccine, that is not at zero risk to themselves, to protect the many so a minority can say bollox to that I'm not having it.

I hope those people who choose not to be vaccinated understand how selfish that attitude is and if replicated throughout the population would see millions die healthcare collapse and the world changed forever. Lets hope they don't need treatment for any ailments un-related to COVID-19 cos that would be awful for them

Bravo lads and lasses for taking a stand for your right to be a fucking moron and bravo to the rest of us for creating a world in which they can be.

Don't forget about the ubermoron element of modern society. The ones that constantly try to persuade other people with different reasons of bollox via social media to not take the vaccine.
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