The Strange Death of Europe
#21
I haven't read the book but understand it to be fairly polarising. From the precis I've read I'd probably partially agree with what the author says.

A lot of people from both sides of the aisle need to realise its perfectly possible to be concerned with the rising tide of Islam (as an ideology) in Europe and its incongruence with our cultural norms whilst not being prejudiced or racist towards individual Muslims, vast swathes of whom are perfectly reasonable people and as British as you or I.

As poster's have already mentioned, combatting illegal immigration is much more difficult than its made out to be in a manifesto pledge however and the "torpedo the dinghies!" crowd you get in Leave.EU comments sections aren't helping their own cause.
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#22
(01-12-2021, 04:06 PM)ChamonixBaggie Wrote: I haven't read the book but understand it to be fairly polarising. From the precis I've read I'd probably partially agree with what the author says.

A lot of people from both sides of the aisle need to realise its perfectly possible to be concerned with the rising tide of Islam (as an ideology) in Europe and its incongruence with our cultural norms whilst not being prejudiced or racist towards individual Muslims, vast swathes of whom are perfectly reasonable people and as British as you or I.

As poster's have already mentioned, combatting illegal immigration is much more difficult than its made out to be in a manifesto pledge however and the "torpedo the dinghies!" crowd you get in Leave.EU comments sections aren't helping their own cause.

Exactly this really.

I know Muslims, have 0 issue with them at all. The vast majority are as British as you and I, in fact, many far more patriotic than me that considers England and Britain to be pretty much shitholes obsessed with some 1950's utopia that never existed, but that's another rant.

However it's the ones that create ghettos where British law seems to have very little impact and therefore they get ignored, to breed more hatred, which also leads to the increase of far right people, pushing more Muslims to these areas and so on.....
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#23
(01-12-2021, 04:06 PM)ChamonixBaggie Wrote: I haven't read the book but understand it to be fairly polarising. From the precis I've read I'd probably partially agree with what the author says.

A lot of people from both sides of the aisle need to realise its perfectly possible to be concerned with the rising tide of Islam (as an ideology) in Europe and its incongruence with our cultural norms whilst not being prejudiced or racist towards individual Muslims, vast swathes of whom are perfectly reasonable people and as British as you or I.

As poster's have already mentioned, combatting illegal immigration is much more difficult than its made out to be in a manifesto pledge however and the "torpedo the dinghies!" crowd you get in Leave.EU comments sections aren't helping their own cause.

It's great to concur with you about something. I'd grab a copy, it's well and truly opened my eyes - particularly with what's rarely reported in Germany and Sweden

The chronology of violent events does not, to put it mildly, make for easy reading. The exposure of commonly-held beliefs (including my own) about the likes of Pym Fortuyn is also sobering.

Cultural norms don't appear to be being diluted by exposure western society, rather distilled in monocultural ghettoes. I'd take issue with the suggestion that the "vast majority" are as British as you and I, when they themselves suggest that's not so.

Half of all Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal; almost half don't think homosexuals should be teachers; 39% agreed that “wives should always obey their husbands” (compared with 5% for the rest of the country); Almost a quarter want the sharia in some areas of Britain. [ICM]

Unfortunately our liberal leaders seem unable to recognise the rise of illiberalism in their midst. And it's far worse in France.
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#24
When I said Vast Majority, I meant of those I know and have dealt with. I can't speak for an entire religion!
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#25
(01-12-2021, 05:49 PM)Birdman1811 Wrote: When I said Vast Majority, I meant of those I know and have dealt with. I can't speak for an entire religion!

Yep. And that's the point.
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#26
Point of order - I said "vast swathes" not "majority" as well. No muslim I've met has expressed any kind of homophobic viewpoint but then again, I don't know that many and the subject of gay rights has rarely come up. A couple of muslim guys in my old BJJ club formed a little liberal, leftie clique with me and another white guy against what were mostly right-wing mma knuckleheads. It was quite good fun.

Macron has started to take a stand against some of the ghetto-isation of some parts of larger French cities (a generation too late) and has, IMO, done an OK job at defending himself from the inevitable cries of Islamophobia. This is, of course, in response to the increasing popularity of the far-right Le Pen.

As has been noted, the dilution of extremism through exposure to liberal ideals should be the goal, rather than it's distillation in ghettos. I don't have the answer to that one unfortunately short of mandating that immigrants (or even muslims born here) are not allowed to live near each other which in itself, would be illiberal.

To clarify as well, I am fully in favour of Britain taking its fair share of Syrian, Lybian, Yemeni etc refugees and the people risking their lives and the lives of their children in dinghies don't deserve to be dismissed as 'economic migrants' IMO.
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#27
Maybe pandering to Saudi Arabia and letting their extreme sect of Islam become the mainstream religious opinion in the UK wasn't such a good idea then?
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#28
(01-12-2021, 06:01 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote: Maybe pandering to Saudi Arabia and letting their extreme sect of Islam become the mainstream religious opinion in the UK wasn't such a good idea then?

Yes this as well.  50 years ago cities like Kabul were comparative beacons of enlightenment and the West is complicit in supporting jihadis in their obsession with the USSR as the enemy.

I'm reading 1000 Splendid Suns at the minute which is set over the end of the Soviet occupation to the mujhadeen occupation, to the Taliban occupation. Desperately sad.
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#29
(01-12-2021, 06:05 PM)ChamonixBaggie Wrote:
(01-12-2021, 06:01 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote: Maybe pandering to Saudi Arabia and letting their extreme sect of Islam become the mainstream religious opinion in the UK wasn't such a good idea then?

Yes this as well.  50 years ago cities like Kabul were comparative beacons of enlightenment and the West is complicit in supporting jihadis in their obsession with the USSR as the enemy.

I'm reading 1000 Splendid Suns at the minute which is set over the end of the Soviet occupation to the mujhadeen occupation, to the Taliban occupation. Desperately sad.

There's also weird stuff like the children and grandchildren of Turkish expats to Germany having more extreme political and religious opinions than their equivalent generations in western Turkey.
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#30
It's a reasonably well known phenomenon isn't it? Not just for Islam but any scenario where people are removed from their culture and made into a minority they tend to cling to it more tightly and passionately as a result; for fear of losing it I suppose. Even down to seemingly trivial stuff like being the only Albion fan in a school full of Wolves fans etc.
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