Brexit gains.
(06-09-2021, 07:01 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: If you leave the club, shouting how much better you’re going to be without them, how awful they are and that you’ll be competing with them, don’t be surprised if the other club members close rank, leave you out of the benefits of the club and prefer not to give you a competitive edge. The Vote Leave Government knew this, they bragged about the ‘oven ready deal’ and now they and their supporters are bemoaning how unfair it all is!
Oh, your back.
 
Any chance of an answer to where in my posts I made a “cake and eat it” argument?
 
Any possibility of a reply and denial to the examples given of ‘vindicates’?
 
Any repost to my pointing out you were very selective in your inference that Brexit is the only cause of a, possible, rise in food prices?
 
Any answer to how do you justify the USA having guaranteed, long term settlement for its financial services  (granted within days)when the UK is denied one?
 
Do I take it that you accept that your beloved EU are being particularly vindictive to the UK then?
Oh, and it wasn’t a “vote leave government”, it was a democratic vote leave population and a very goodly proportion of that voting population did not vote for a tory government. And, as you keep ignoring, most of Cameron’s cabinet campaigned for remain.
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(06-09-2021, 07:30 AM)Ossian Wrote: So, in the end does this come down to a mean-spirited approach from the EU, or simply poor preparation and/or negotiating skills on the part of the UK?

An element of both I expect. Though I would suggest that the UK’s negotiating was severely hampered by Parliament trying its hardest to hamper and undermine the negotiating stance of the UK.

I don’t think there is any doubt that Macron and the French are particularly mean spirited towards the UK (though they always have been). I hope the French electorate give him another good, metaphoric, slap in the face soon.
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(06-09-2021, 07:20 AM)JOK Wrote:
(06-08-2021, 08:55 PM)Borin' Baggie Wrote: The UK government has been offered use of the Galileo system and the ability to work on procurement contracts on the same terms as Switzerland and Norway, who have also paid in. That sounds perfectly fair to me given we are now a third country. What we (the UK government) wanted is access to encrypted data that is only being shared between the 27 EU member states which is a whole different kettle of fish.

A much better analogy is whether would you give your Wi-Fi password out to your neighbour, which of course you bloody wouldn't.

My Neighbours aren’t paying for my Broadband.


The UK invested £1.2bn in Galileo, Switzerland has bunged in €80mil (£70mil -ish)
So, you pay a fifth of the cost to have Fibre Optic cable laid down your street, you’d be happy for 20 of your neighbours, who paid nothing towards it, to use it for free whilst you can only use the basic package?

If you pay for fibre optic cables to be laid you still need a to play a subscription fee for an ISP to route traffic, as would your neighbours. If your neighbours pay for that but you don't, you don't get the service but they do. My analogy relates to trust and security, two aspects you've totally ignored.

It doesn't matter what the UK invested, it was invested while we were an EU member state on the terms of being an EU member state and doesn't negate the issue of what we're asking for is a security risk which is why no third country will have access to the encrypted data. Us paying more into it doesn't magic away the issue.

Please explain to me why the EU would offer a third country the ability to track every EU citizen despite not having any security oversight over that third country? We have been offered access in line with other third countries but have decided we don't want that, that's our problem and not the EU's. Let's not forget that you were complaining about Switzerland being offered more access than we were offered in the first place which is completely false.
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To go back to the original pointing made without any analogies, we knew that this would happen, this was dismissed by the Brexit team as project fear and the voters were told it will be easiest deal ever, oven ready etc. We are now in a position that we are suffering because we were stupid enough not to take seriously the implication of our intentions. It really is ripe when those that got us into this mess with open eyes are now complaining.

There is nothing occurring here that we weren't well aware of before we made the choice to leave.
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"There are no downsides to Brexit!!!"

(06-09-2021, 07:52 AM)JOK Wrote:
(06-09-2021, 07:30 AM)Ossian Wrote: So, in the end does this come down to a mean-spirited approach from the EU, or simply poor preparation and/or negotiating skills on the part of the UK?

An element of both I expect. Though I would suggest that the UK’s negotiating was severely hampered by Parliament trying its hardest to hamper and undermine the negotiating stance of the UK.

I don’t think there is any doubt that Macron and the French are particularly mean spirited towards the UK (though they always have been). I hope the French electorate give him another good, metaphoric, slap in the face soon.

Your argument seems to consist of the fact that the EU has acted badly and mean spiritedly.  The fact that the Brexiteers confidently predicted that leaving would be overwhelmingly positive and only bring benefits was a calculated, mean spirited and bad lie.
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(06-09-2021, 08:26 AM)Brentbaggie Wrote: "There are no downsides to Brexit!!!"

(06-09-2021, 07:52 AM)JOK Wrote:
(06-09-2021, 07:30 AM)Ossian Wrote: So, in the end does this come down to a mean-spirited approach from the EU, or simply poor preparation and/or negotiating skills on the part of the UK?

An element of both I expect. Though I would suggest that the UK’s negotiating was severely hampered by Parliament trying its hardest to hamper and undermine the negotiating stance of the UK.

I don’t think there is any doubt that Macron and the French are particularly mean spirited towards the UK (though they always have been). I hope the French electorate give him another good, metaphoric, slap in the face soon.

Your argument seems to consist of the fact that the EU has acted badly and mean spiritedly.  The fact that the Brexiteers confidently predicted that leaving would be overwhelmingly positive and only bring benefits was a calculated, mean spirited and bad lie.

I did vote Leave even though I was sure there would be a hell of a lot of resistance and mean spirit to be faced and knowing it definitely wouldn't be a piece of piss to get everything set up. But you're right, that was a hell of a whoppa.
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(06-09-2021, 07:52 AM)JOK Wrote:
(06-09-2021, 07:30 AM)Ossian Wrote: So, in the end does this come down to a mean-spirited approach from the EU, or simply poor preparation and/or negotiating skills on the part of the UK?

An element of both I expect. Though I would suggest that the UK’s negotiating was severely hampered by Parliament trying its hardest to hamper and undermine the negotiating stance of the UK.

I don’t think there is any doubt that Macron and the French are particularly mean spirited towards the UK (though they always have been). I hope the French electorate give him another good, metaphoric, slap in the face soon.

There's probably some truth in that, although I've always thought it a bit odd that the 'Remain majority' in the commons was largely reaffirmed in 2017 and only significantly altered at the 2019 election, when the withdrawal process was entering its latter stages. That's something I've always put down to the fact that the period between the 2016 referendum and the triggering of Article 50 - 9 months from memory - was substantially wasted, as indeed was a significant tranche of the next couple of years - ultimately resulting in the need for an extension.
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(06-09-2021, 08:23 AM)baggy1 Wrote: To go back to the original pointing made without any analogies, we knew that this would happen, this was dismissed by the Brexit team as project fear and the voters were told it will be easiest deal ever, oven ready etc. We are now in a position that we are suffering because we were stupid enough not to take seriously the implication of our intentions. It really is ripe when those that got us into this mess with open eyes are now complaining.

There is nothing occurring here that we weren't well aware of before we made the choice to leave.

Exactly. 

Getting angry at the EU having presumably known what was going to happen if we leave seems a very strange position to take, after-all most Brexiteers insisted they knew exactly what they were voting for. Perhaps it's the sense of exceptionalism that seems to pervade through many on the Brexit side of the debate that thought we are a special and that we can pick and choose which areas of the 'oven ready, brilliant deal' we should stick to. 

One last thing, I don't think you will find many Remainers who thinks the EU is a bastion of virtue or in anyway perfect, they just realised that remaining was better for the UK than leaving on balance. That's a big difference, most on the remain side came to a conclusion based on pragmatism, those who wanted to leave without vested interests went with their feelings / wanted to believe. Something big company's know works far better as a selling point than boring old facts and figures.
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Who’s getting angry?

The only thing I’m getting slightly miffed about is your constant ignoring of questions asking you to prove your statements.
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(06-09-2021, 08:56 AM)Derek Hardballs Wrote: they just realised that remaining was better for them than leaving on balance

I've corrected that for you. I'd never criticise Remainers for their enlightened self interest. It's a pity Remainers never return the compliment.
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